Ask The Experts
General Category => Ask the Experts => Topic started by: Silver Charm on May 08, 2008, 09:05:48 PM
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Pretty good story. He covered a lot of bases and did his homework. Saying he once was someone who did not like the idea of changing the Triple Crown he now is.
The Woody Stephens comments on the decline in the quality of the breed. For all of you Synthetic lovers this is just a band-aid until the breed declines even further and the synthetic statistics for breakdowns are worse than the dirt ever were.
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/columns/story?id=3387061
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Well, what do you expect from a guy that bet Visionaire in the Derby. Shouldn\'t that be evidence enough he has no idea what he\'s talking about?
To alter the spacing of the races, merely encourages the ill-breds. Heck, give them 3 months between races and a 4 race career. The biggest problem in the game are the \"enablers\". Moss has become one of them. He can\'t handicap to save his life and now he can\'t think his way out of a room without walls. Moss lost his head this time or his \"egg\" got fried from being out in the sun too long without a hat.
Silver Charm Wrote:
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> Pretty good story. He covered a lot of bases and
> did his homework. Saying he once was someone who
> did not like the idea of changing the Triple Crown
> he now is.
>
> The Woody Stephens comments on the decline in the
> quality of the breed. For all of you Synthetic
> lovers this is just a band-aid until the breed
> declines even further and the synthetic statistics
> for breakdowns are worse than the dirt ever were.
>
>
>
> http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown
> 08/columns/story?id=3387061
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I wasn\'t sure about this idea, but the fact that Chuckles is against it makes me think that Moss is on to something...
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....as a \"traditionalist,\" I never wanted the spacing messed with; however, with todays \"nutrition\" and other advances, horses are running to the edge of their limits. The skeletal structure cannot sustain this punishment without sufficient time to recover. As with human athletes, gone are the days of 4-man pitching rotations where 250 innings was the norm, and the stars like Steve Carlton would pitch 330+ innings, with velocity and durability!
I used to disagree with JB when he said horses are getting faster,etc...because I couldn\'t see significant \"raw\" time shifts... not any more.
Do the TC as follows:
Derby...1st Sat in May
Preakness...Memorial Day
Belmont...4th of July
Tie America\'s tradition to the holidays!
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That still will not stop some people from having their clients run their horses every three weeks while prepping for the Derby. But it is a start.
Moss as I said did a good job. The guy is the luckiest man alive getting to work next to Jeanine Edwards. He went an entire story without barking \"Trained by Bob Baffert\" even once. So his therapy must be working.
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I just saw a video that suggested that the latest studies indicate that the breed hasn\'t changed at all.
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?videoId=96901&sMPlaylistID=
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Silver,
Good article and some interesting points.I was a bit perplexed with Moss
saying only 1 horse was \"capable\" of running in the preakness and BB was
JUST partly responsible for this. I\'d venture Dr. Bramlage had more to say
than \"horse racing is in a crisis\".
http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=8280476
I don\'t know how to send this as a link. Bramlage has some very interesting
things to say aside from just \"crisis\".
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The whole thing is the typical knee jerk reaction by the animal loons and those possessing little knowledge of the facts and statistics.Most thoroughbreds are treated better than some people in this country.There is nothing wrong with the Triple Crown spacing, there is obviously something wrong with the breed on the whole.
Owners/buyers want speed and that\'s what the breeders are giving them.Any breeder who attempts to breed soundness without producing speed will go broke in a New York minute.
The breeding thing could take at least a generation to resolve and there will still be breakdowns thereafter.
Mike
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fasteddie Wrote:
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> ....as a \"traditionalist,\" I never wanted the
> spacing messed with; however, with todays
> \"nutrition\" and other advances, horses are running
> to the edge of their limits. The skeletal
> structure cannot sustain this punishment without
> sufficient time to recover. As with human
> athletes, gone are the days of 4-man pitching
> rotations where 250 innings was the norm, and the
> stars like Steve Carlton would pitch 330+ innings,
> with velocity and durability!
>
> I used to disagree with JB when he said horses are
> getting faster,etc...because I couldn\'t see
> significant \"raw\" time shifts... not any more.
>
> Do the TC as follows:
>
> Derby...1st Sat in May
> Preakness...Memorial Day
> Belmont...4th of July
>
> Tie America\'s tradition to the holidays!
Would seem logical with the spacing but I would just shoot for the Saturday\'s near those holidays and not the holiday itself. Indy 500 is on Memorial Day and July 4th would fall on a weekday 5 out of 7 times.
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jmetro Wrote:
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> Would seem logical with the spacing but I would
> just shoot for the Saturday\'s near those holidays
> and not the holiday itself. Indy 500 is on
> Memorial Day and July 4th would fall on a weekday
> 5 out of 7 times.
First Saturday in May, First Saturday in June, First Saturday in July?
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Everybody is jumping overboard like a bunch of drownding rats.
Why not have the Derby one year, the Preakness the next year , etc,etc.
Not a damn word about the problem.
What a bunch of bulls@@t
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Indy 500 is on the Sunday before Memorial Day.
> Do the TC as follows:
>
> Derby...1st Sat in May
> Preakness...Memorial Day
> Belmont...4th of July
>
> Tie America\'s tradition to the holidays!
I like this idea. So what if the 4th is during the week, its a national holiday and can be tied into the promotion.
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The PROBLEM??? are you kidding? We all know we are one nationally televised leg-snap from sending the sport off a cliff! Had the filly won the Derby, all would be lost!
Racing will become a marginal sport if we don\'t get our act together; UNIFIED rules and enforcement controlled by a NATIONAL organization. Otherwise, it ends up like boxing, with it\'s 1/2 dozen sanctioning bodies and \"champions\"!
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If everyone Moss mentioned in the story took a position on a sole governing body for racing then some good things could be done.
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There is a movement afoot which is not exactly that, but related. I\'ll have more if it actually takes shape and becomes public.
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Can it happen by next Saturday?
The Sport needs to look like it is doing something to hold on to fans
The Signal Lockouts are a total mess. Purses getting slashed 20% and 30%.
The people with the most to lose are killing the Sport themselves.
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I think a true national regulatory body is a non-starter. Too many states; too many regulators; too many horsemen with diverse interests.
What makes more sense to me is to have the Graded Stakes Committee and the Breeders Cup take action with respect to their high-end races. Those are the races that get the exposure, satisfy the egos, and produce the stallions. What works in terms of limiting medication use and enhancing drug testing in graded stakes isn\'t necessarily practical with respect to 7yo $5,000 claimers.
Of course, the people who control the Graded Stakes Committee and the Breeders Cup may be the people with the most to lose from dramatic change, so I\'m not holding my breath. They\'ll probably just keep announcing the formation of new committees.
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>What makes more sense to me is to have the Graded Stakes Committee and the Breeders Cup take action with respect to their high-end races. Those are the races that get the exposure, satisfy the egos, and produce the stallions. What works in terms of limiting medication use and enhancing drug testing in graded stakes isn\'t necessarily practical with respect to 7yo $5,000 claimers. <
I think you hit the nail on the head. It would be better if we could eliminate all race day drug use, but the economics would make it very difficult to sell that in the short term. However, if there was no drug use allowed for Graded races, the complaint about the economics sort of evaporates because the people that own horses like that don\'t have as much to complain about. They race their horses lightly to begin with and they typically have way more financial resources anyway. That might help the breed over the long term (drug free horses winning major stakes and passing soundness on in their genes) and with general perceptions that at least something is being done as a start.
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Listen I do not care if you run the Derby on Passover, the Preakness on Rosh
Hashanah and the Belmont on Yom Kippur, if you change from the currently
existing format it would be insulting to some great champions if you called
this new \"spaced out\" series of races the \"Triple Crown\".
Some would contend that Smarty Jones, all of four years ago, was a racerider
away from winning the Triple Crown. And Curlin competed in all 3 legs of the
traditional Triple Crown, came back to beat up on older horses and has come
back as a 4YO.
The idea should not be to change Racing to accommodate the diluted gene pool
(ie permissive medication and synthetic surfaces); a better idea is to get back
to breeding durable horses.
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RB,
No sport is as dependant on statistics as baseball. Yet, there have been numerous changes to the game. Everyone knows Maris\' 61 homers were accomplished in a different manner than Babe Ruth\'s 60. Doesn\'t mean adding 8 games to the schedule was wrong. Same thng with other sports. Rule changes have affected the game from previous eras, yet fans understand the differences.
We bitch and moan all of the time about how racing has its head in the sand, won\'t make an effort to improve its product, can\'t garner any positive publicity and grow the sport. Yet, here you are bemoaning change to the sport. We might insult past champions. Boo hoo. According too whom?? You and the Clown??
Lets keep everything the same, continue having poor exposure, a declining fan base, etc... Horseracing has never been healthier, lets leave it alone.
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PD:
Yes Racing has problems. Yes it is time for changes.
Changing the \"spacing\" of the Triple Crown is not a solution to a problem,
it is a reaction to a problem.
OK I\'ll play along briefly because I like to explore both sides. Lets say you
space the races logically and put them in 3 venues where they can be marketed
properly.
Maybe change the distance of some of the races? And I agree that having the last
race later in the year will segue more nicely into the BC.
Still, the decision makers would have a lot of work to do. Co ordinate TV
coverage (one national network with competent coverage which begins before the
series and continues to some extent between races; one cable premium cable
network which gives these races close coverage). I\'ll say this for the nth
time: tie the winning race numbers or combination into a lottery; somehow tie
the races to a pick 3?; or maybe expose the tourists to futures wagering?.
Lots of possibilities to draw in the mainstream.
Just please dont call it the Triple Crown. Call it 3 races NTRA Hopes Will Save
Racing. Or something.
Now the baseball comparison. There are so many variables in something like the
home run record-- stadium dimensions, strength of pitchers, juiced ball, juiced
players,intentional walks etc.
Racing has had a series called the Triple Crown which for the most part has
been run in the same \"stadiums\" for over a century, and I do not believe there
is anything in American professional team sports which compares to it. Colts
who have won the Triple Crown during my \"watch\" (Secretariat, Affirmed and
Seattle Slew) all had their greatness confirmed versus older horses or as
stalions or both.
Chance to market Racing better? Maybe.
A change which will help improve Racing?
On a separate manner,and without making this an East v West deal, what is the
explanation for the very short weekday fields at the Cal tracks?
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Fair enough Richie, you make many valid points. But between the drug issues and the breeding philosophies, the horses don\'t seem to have the same durability as the greats of the past. Thats why I don\'t have a problem with making changes to the TC series.
As far as the short fields out here, I don\'t know. I have a good friend that has a stable, I\'ll ask him.
Love reading your stuff, sometimes I get a little fired up when I have an opinion. Must be the Italian bloodlines.
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P-Dub:
I understand the Italian thing.
I\'m Russian/Hungarian, but when I was growing up on Staten Island it was
basically Italian/Irish. Now like most neighborhoods in New York City, we
have people from all continents except I guess Antarctica.
Growing up on Staten Island in the 70s and 80s meant that you thought
that \"The Godfather\" and \"Goodfellas\" were documentaries.
Before Racing\'s problems are solved, Racing needs a \"Commish\" a \"cappo di tutti
capi\", if you will-- like Pete Rozelle or Bud Selig or the NHL\'s Gary Bettman
(not a bad name for a Racing \"czar\" there). Even a 2 or 3 person committee
would be suitable, but Racing and Breeding are complex businesses and this is
not a situation where you could take someone and say \"Well,(s)he was very
successful in other businesses so...\" Someone with specific knowledge of the
game and a proper grasp of the sense of urgency is needed to take control.
To me that is where all the problem solving starts.
The racing and breeding industries need coordination on a national level
before the problems are identified and addressed.
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When you boil their argument down to its essence, the argument is:
\"You must accommodate our deficient horses.\"
As you noted Richie, changing the spacing does not address the root problem, it merely addresses the symptoms of the ill bred and over medicated horses. The root issue is the soundness of an animal that can\'t race on the timetables that the greats of the past raced on. They will want four weeks between races this time and the next time six weeks between races while they continue to breed deficient race horses. Ultimately, they will want to shorten the races too.
Modifying the timetable is raising the white flag. Peat Moss is a surrender monkey. He doesn\'t have the stomach for a righteous fight. Poly Turf and now a serious suggestion we must tinker with the timing of the Triple Crown? This is where we must take our stand. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me Affirmed or give me death.
Besides, we don\'t want it so easy that any turnip farmer can predict whether a horse will bounce or not. This is our realm, why would we want to level the bounce playing field.
richiebee Wrote:
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> Listen I do not care if you run the Derby on
> Passover, the Preakness on Rosh
> Hashanah and the Belmont on Yom Kippur, if you
> change from the currently
> existing format it would be insulting to some
> great champions if you called
> this new \"spaced out\" series of races the \"Triple
> Crown\".
>
> Some would contend that Smarty Jones, all of four
> years ago, was a racerider
> away from winning the Triple Crown. And Curlin
> competed in all 3 legs of the
> traditional Triple Crown, came back to beat up on
> older horses and has come
> back as a 4YO.
>
> The idea should not be to change Racing to
> accommodate the diluted gene pool
> (ie permissive medication and synthetic surfaces);
> a better idea is to get back
> to breeding durable horses.
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From a time frame, the tight 5 week set up keeps the TC in constant vogue within the press, industry and fan base.Thinking that Barbaro or any other horse would not have broken down with more time in between starts is pure voodoo.
Over medication and a contaminated gene pool is the number 1 culprit by far.
Mike
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What do you mean by a \'contaminated\' gene pool?
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Al,
Contaminated with unsoundness being thrown by over medicated/steroid laden stallions and broodmares.
Mike
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Arthur Hancock in the next to last paragraph calls for Congressional involvement. There is an LA Times story today and another coming tomorrow outlining all of the problems and how no one wants to do anything about it.
Even ESPN one of racings biggest supporters is coming out with first the Moss story and now the Forde story. This one is pretty good also.
The sound of silence coming from the industry tells the story. The solution is the Goodell solution. Say there is nothing wrong and hope it goes away.
Bring on Arlen Specter........
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3395758&sportCat=horse&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab5pos1
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Like a Republican is going to help horse racing. Have you not seen what the Elephants did with Clemmens. They took his side you nutcase!
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Below is an excerpt from the LA Times story and below that is the link. If people have a problem with these things get a hold of Dwyre, Forde and Moss. They wrote it and I am just repeating it.
This year\'s Triple Crown races feature at least three trainers who have served suspensions for having horses test positive for Mepivacaine: Steve Asmussen, who trained Curlin, last year\'s Preakness champion; Todd Pletcher, whose Rags to Riches won the Belmont Stakes last year; and Rick Dutrow Jr., whose Big Brown won this year\'s Kentucky Derby.
According to the Assn. of Racing Commissioners International, Dutrow has been fined every year since 2000 for a horse doping situation. In \'03, one of his horses tested positive for Mepivacaine. He has served various suspension times, ranging from 14 to 60 days for these violations.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/la-sp-horsesone15-2008may15,0,2538730.column
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\"This year\'s Triple Crown races feature at least three trainers who have served suspensions for having horses test positive for Mepivacaine: Steve Asmussen, who trained Curlin, last year\'s Preakness champion; Todd Pletcher, whose Rags to Riches won the Belmont Stakes last year; and Rick Dutrow Jr., whose Big Brown won this year\'s Kentucky Derby\"
Silver,
...It\'s a shame guys like this get to write stories that the average racing fan does not understand. Mepivacaine,yeah that racing\'s drug problem.
Mike
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Interesting that nothing was found so far to support anything but a random occurrence.I would have thought that she had some kind of abnormality which led to her breakdown.
From Bloodhorse:
Eight Belles, the filly who broke down after finishing second in the Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands (gr. I) at Churchill Downs May 3, had no pre-existing bone abnormalities, a necropsy report released May 15 concluded. The filly suffered compound fractures of both front legs at the fetlock joints.
The necropsy, ordered by the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority, also found no disease or condition affecting the cardiovascular and pulmonary systems or other major organs, said Dr. Lafe Nichols, Kentucky chief state veterinarian.
Owned by Rick Porter\'s Fox Hill Farms and trained by Larry Jones, Eight Belles was euthanized on the track after suffering the catastrophic leg injuries.
The necropsy was performed at the Livestock Disease Diagnostic Center at the University of Kentucky. The results of routine post-race drug testing have not yet been received. That testing is being performed at the authority’s official laboratory at Iowa State University.
Porter had previously stated preliminary necropsy reports said the daughter of Unbridled\'s Song out of the Dixieland Band mare Away did not suffer a heart attack or an aneurysm or any other surprises.
At its regularly scheduled May 19 meeting, the KHRA will be asked by its chairman, Robert Beck Jr., to form a work group to study health and safety issues relating to thoroughbred racing.
“Nothing is more important to the racing industry than the safety of the competitors,” said Lisa Underwood, executive director of KHRA.