Okay, look.

[rayj54]

As an owner whose horse raced first time synthetic in the cup I can only say that good horses to be called great must perform on all surfaces.I just don\'t understand why the powers that be could not have arranged for  two races credibly spaced on each surface.Not only would that have been great for racing but it would have put to rest all the speculation about who should be horse of the year.Sadly ,we have probably seen Zen run her last race and the probability of that no longer exist.A shame though, as having been lucky enough to see each of these splendid horses perform both at Saratoga for Woodward and Sat.at Santa Anita and being witness to the excitement and affection generated among the public for these wonderful animals I can only say \"what could have been\".

[richiebee]

Frank:

I guess you and I should have partnered on the ticket.

I singled Godzillakova and Conduit on my ticket, based mostly on the historical
Euro dominance in grass events and the fact that each of these runners was
getting Lasix for the first time after having won their BC races in 08 w/out
Lasix. (A least one person I spoke with thought the addition of Lasix was a
negative, which I am still shaking my head at).

I was aware that Zenyatta was a possible winner of the Classic. With no offense
to you or JB, I really did not need the TGs to make me aware of this. My read of
Zenyatta in this race was that she was stepping up in class a bit at a short
price and would need a perfect trip. These are the type of runners I routinely
exclude from multiple race wagers.

The runner I really fancied in the Classic was Colonel John, who may have moved a
bit early.

[Leamas57]

Summer Bird\'s four- and five-year old campaigns will be great ones. I predict SB wins a lot more money and probably at least a couple Grade 1s in the next two years.

That horse has some speed and stamina and clearly didn\'t take to the surface.

Respectfully disagree.

Leamas

[Funny Cide]

4. It is no more sensible to diminish the accomplishments of Zenyatta in the Classic because some of the eastern dirt horses were disadvantaged on the synthetic surface than it would to diminish the accomplishments of prior BC Classic winners because all the great European Grade 1 turf horses were disadvantaged by racing on dirt. Zenyatta still beat a boatload of multiple Grade 1 winning turf and synthetic horses from the US and Europe that were very suited to the surface in addition to those dirt horses.
-----------------------------------------------------

What?  That\'s not at all an apples to apples comparison.  It\'s absolutely to diminish the accomplishments of a prior BC winner winning over a Euro turf horse who is disadvantaged on the dirt.  The key word is disadvantaged!  Give them all their preferred surface, and then it\'s horses taking on each other on the level playing field of them all racing on their best footing.

Zenyatta is by far the best synthetic horse in the world, and she got to run the BC Classic on synthetic, to the decided disadvantage of all the dirt horses in that field.  The other synth horses in the field were far inferior to her.  Rip Van Winkle was decidedly overrated (as his as Mastercraftsman\'s runs proved).  She beat G3ish turf horses in the second and third spots.

Zenyatta\'s a magnificent horse, but this field wasn\'t all that.  If you didn\'t know that going in, it was impossible to miss coming out.

[Funny Cide]

Forgive me, I called Gio a G3ish turf horse, memory slipped who finished 2nd.  Obviously, he\'s very much a G1 turf horse.  So, edit to say two turf horses.

[jimbo66]

Michael,

Yes, Michael just an opinion.  Agreed.  Some people on this board that I think are good handicappers like yourself, surprise the hell out of me with your view on this.  So, I went back tonight and watched both fillies races throughout the year.  Also looked at their figures.  Beyers and TG.  I don\'t see it.  I don\'t think the HOY vote should be close, and with the evidence that is there, hard to believe the two are close in ability.  Have you forgotten all close finishes for Zenyatta against tin cans?  Rachel obliterates the competition.  Are we going to sweep that all under the carpet by saying \"that is the nature of synthetic racing (close finishes).  Yet no adjustment for the fact that all of Zenyatta\'s accomplishments save one race, were in California, on synthetic?

As for \"shouting distance\", I say Rachel wins those races by more than 2 lengths.  So, no 1:51 or 1:53.  A couple ticks behind Rachel, but a non-threatening second.

[Funny Cide]

My opinion is that Mine That Bird and Summer Bird will not win another graded
stakes in their careers.
------------------------

So, after the one-hit wonder won the Belmont, winning the Travers and then the JCGC proved his flukeness?

[FrankD.]

Richie,

I can understand singles on both Conduit & Goldikova for sure. I thought the post and short odds on Goldikova were worth a shot trying to beat her. She\'s a monster! No offense and I apologize for the tone I was just shocked that Zenyatta could be left off a ticket. I did not like her but put her on my losing tic.


Court Vision,Delagator,Cowboy Cal, Zacinto,Gladiatorous x Mastercraftsman,Midshipman x Conduit, Telling,Precious Passion x Richards Kid, Colonel John, Einstein, Zenyatta

[Leamas57]

Zenyatta is 17 1/2 hands--as big or bigger than Man 0\' War was. Her stride is such that at 10 furlongs, she can have a kick on a surface that doesn\'t favor speed. Put her on a fast dirt track at 1 1/16 or 1 1/8 and she\'s 3-4 lengths back of Rachel. Now, a good or slightly slower surface at 1 1/4 and she\'s even money against Rachel for me.

Mine That Bird looked like he was flying in the Derby once, too, but the conditions and pace had to be right...

Leamas.

[richiebee]

Leamas:

Brilliant! 3YO Summer Bird descends from a sire line (Grindstone/Birdstone) whose
work on the racetrack was done before they reached the age of 4.

Hope he continues on but I am skeptical.

[FrankD.]

Good point on the sire line and there\'s not much data on Birdstone yet ? But if Summer Bird has anywhere near the typical development from 3-4 for a colt he\'ll be a monster next year. He\'s already run a negative 4 and that\'s scary !

Let\'s hope he develops into a top handicap horse and were not having this debate next year about HOY.

[miff]

\"A least one person I spoke with thought the addition of Lasix was a
negative, which I am still shaking my head at\"


Bee,

More than one trainer that you would respect would tell you that there are instances when Lasix \"dulls\" certain horses.

Beth,

Can you comment on your experience with salix \"dulling\" one. Any educated guess at why.Thanks


Mike

[Leamas57]

If you even look at the horse, you\'ll see he\'s no Birdstone and seems to get more from the Summer Squall side. He\'s no little one-run shortlegs. If you can find, it, his trainer made some remarks about him in DRF--before the Belmont, I think?

Leamas.

[Michael D.]

jimbo66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Michael,
>
> Yes, Michael just an opinion.  Agreed.  Some
> people on this board that I think are good
> handicappers like yourself, surprise the hell out
> of me with your view on this.  So, I went back
> tonight and watched both fillies races throughout
> the year.  Also looked at their figures.  Beyers
> and TG.  I don\'t see it.  I don\'t think the HOY
> vote should be close, and with the evidence that
> is there, hard to believe the two are close in
> ability.  Have you forgotten all close finishes
> for Zenyatta against tin cans?  Rachel obliterates
> the competition.  Are we going to sweep that all
> under the carpet by saying \"that is the nature of
> synthetic racing (close finishes).  Yet no
> adjustment for the fact that all of Zenyatta\'s
> accomplishments save one race, were in California,
> on synthetic?
>
> As for \"shouting distance\", I say Rachel wins
> those races by more than 2 lengths.  So, no 1:51
> or 1:53.  A couple ticks behind Rachel, but a
> non-threatening second.




First of all Jim, you\'ve made an outrageous statement here that cannot go unchallenged - I\'m a good handicapper??? I handicapped the BC for an entire week and got virtually nothing correct. Also lost the few races I bet at CD and Aqu. Can\'t think of anyone worse at the moment.

As for Z\'s close finishes, Mike Smith said he used 80% of what he had in the tank on Saturday. Mike Smith never tried to win by a pole or run a fast speed figure, he just did what he had to do to win the races.

Rachel put up some huge figures this year, and if that\'s going to be your main point of reference, she wins. You have every right to point to the Oaks and Haskell figures among others and call this great filly the champ. But Rachel looked beatable to me in her two most difficult challenges, the Preakness and Woodward. I\'m of the opinion that those two races reflect her true ability best, and that Zenyatta was good enough to run her down in a 9 or 10f race on dirt or poly.

[jimbo66]

Richiebee,

I guess we will just have to disagree.  If you really feel that Summer Bird is over-rated, we \"irreconcilable differences\".  Belmont, Travers, Jockey Club Gold Cup.  As fast as Curlin on the figures, and seemed to have added the dimension of tactical speed as the horse progressed through his 3 year old season.  I think this horse is really really good.  I think the Japan Cup dirt is a bad idea and Tim Ice may be squeezing the lemon a bit hard but he is the trainer, not me.

Agree that we still may not have seen the best of Quality Road, but I wonder how long we can say that without seeing something better?  I guess I need to see one sub-par race on dirt, before I give up on that horse.

Thanks for rubbing some more salt in my \"futures bets\" wounds  I was almost over that now........