OH Boy...Synthetics is True Test of Champions

[sighthound]

The Europeans have been racing horses far longer than we. Dirt is the exception, not the average or the historical.  We didn\'t start getting good strains of good horses until we imported Euro horses here (see Claiborne, Spendthrift, etc)

[Funny Cide]

sighthound Wrote:
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> The Europeans have been racing horses far longer
> than we. Dirt is the exception, not the average or
> the historical.  We didn\'t start getting good
> strains of good horses until we imported Euro
> horses here (see Claiborne, Spendthrift, etc)

Before then, horses came from the desert, which is sandy the last I looked.  And while we brought prolific stallions to our shores, we\'ve also dispacted prolific stallions to foreign shores (including Europe).  See Danzig\'s sons, particularly Danehill, for an example.

Which is all neither here or there.  Racing in this country has been primarily dirt racing, and no other country can boast of a roster of great racehorses anywhere remotely close to what we\'ve produced.  Why should we give up our dirt racing again?  For what purpose?  Does it do anything to improve American racing?

[sighthound]

Yes, but we never raced horses on the desert, we bred them with coarse grade mares in England and got lucky with fast.   Desert sand has nothing to do with dirt (look at the different hooves required), and nothing to do with speed (it\'s about endurance and toughness and smallness).

Which, you are right, is neither here nor there.  Racing in this country hasn\'t always been dirt, however, it\'s origin was indeed turf, endurance, heats, etc.

We don\'t have to \"give up\" our dirt racing, but I think we are rather narrow-minded and provincial in thinking it\'s the only real racing.   Especially when one thinks no other country can boast as many great racehorses as we do.  Which is true only if you think grass racing doesn\'t count.

[HP]

I don\'t think it\'s a matter of people asserting that dirt racing is the only \"real\" racing, but rather frustration that the new state of affairs has really hurt the game without providing what it was touted for...improved safety for horses.  

There were good intentions with the switch to synth...but now that it\'s unclear whether the synth is really safer for the horses...we\'re left with this surface issue which makes handicapping (which is what we really enjoy doing) a total mess for the consumer, the horseplayer.  Horseplayers at least need the ILLUSION that they can figure things out.  This goes a long way towards undermining some of the foundations of the game and the enjoyment that goes with it.  

Hindsight being 20/20...I think it would have been better to try the synth on a really limited basis (maybe one or two tracks?) to get the read on the \"safety\" issue.  Instead it\'s already all over the place and it\'s a classic lose/lose proposition.  You didn\'t get the \"safety\" improvement and you screwed your customer.  I would say the whole \"dirt\" vs. \"Euro\" thing is more misdirected anger and frustration than anything else.  

HP

[Funny Cide]

sighthound Wrote:
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> Especially when one thinks no other country can
> boast as many great racehorses as we do.  Which is
> true only if you think grass racing doesn\'t count.

Nah, it\'s true if you look at their records (counting grass).

Sea Bird II is generally said to be their greatest racehorse.  He made a whopping 8 starts in his career.

Mill Reef (US-bred & owned, btw) and Brigadier Gerard may be battling for second, and they made 14 and 18 starts respectively.

Others making their top 10 would likely be Nijinsky II (Canadian-bred, btw) with his 13 starts, Ribot with his 16 starts, Nearco and Roberto (US-bred) with their 14 starts apiece, Alleged (US-bred) with his 10 starts, and Sea The Stars with his 9 starts.

Compare those records to the records of our top 10 or so horses:

Man o\' War & Secretariat with 21 starts, Citation with 45, Kelso with 63, Fager and Native Dancer with 22 each, Forego with 57, Slew with 17, Bid and Tom Fool with 30 each, Affirmed with 29.  And I can keep listing the greats:  War Admiral (26), Buckpasser (31), Damascus (32), Round Table (66), Cigar (33), Bold Ruler (33), Swaps (25), Equipoise (51), John Henry (83), Nashua (30), Seabiscuit (89), Whirlaway (60), and I\'ll leave you with Exterminator (100).

I\'m not a frustrated handicapper.  I\'m one who appreciates the history of this great sport, and a big admirer of what American dirt racing has produced in the way of great horses.  I used to be one of those guys who thought the grass was greener on the other side of the pond until I really started looking at their history and the horses they\'ve produced.  Hands down, we\'ve produced a faster, better, and more durable product than those who have been racing on the kinder turf.  I don\'t want to go in the direction of what they produce in Europe.

[magicnight]

Just a couple of points here, FC, and not to unduly prolong this string ...

\"Compare those records to the records of our top 10 or so horses:

Man o\' War & Secretariat with 21 starts, Citation with 45, Kelso with 63, Fager and Native Dancer with 22 each, Forego with 57, Slew with 17, Bid and Tom Fool with 30 each, Affirmed with 29. And I can keep listing the greats: War Admiral (26), Buckpasser (31), Damascus (32), Round Table (66), Cigar (33), Bold Ruler (33), Swaps (25), Equipoise (51), John Henry (83), Nashua (30), Seabiscuit (89), Whirlaway (60), and I\'ll leave you with Exterminator (100).\"

I notice that one horse on this list has raced within the last 25 years. How many starts are the great American racehorses making these days? I know, syndication and the trend towards \"layoff\" training. But European horses have been training up to big races for decades now, so it seems pretty unfair to compare Nijinsky or Roberto to Exterminator using starts as a metric.

I\'d also note that the one recent horse on your list was a late bloomer who started his career on grass. Any chance that helped him make 31 starts?

I\'m for racetracks that are as safe as possible, for horses and riders, period. Even though \"safe racetrack\" will probably always be a contradiction in terms.

[Funny Cide]

magicnight Wrote:
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>
> I notice that one horse on this list has raced
> within the last 25 years.

As compared to the European list of horses, who were all born between the 1930s and 1970s, with the exception of Sea The Stars?

> How many starts are the
> great American racehorses making these days?

More than the Europeans.  Our two most recent top horses Rachel and Zenyatta both raced significantly more than the recent top Europeans Sea The Stars and Zarkava.

> know, syndication and the trend towards \"layoff\"
> training. But European horses have been training
> up to big races for decades now, so it seems
> pretty unfair to compare Nijinsky or Roberto to
> Exterminator using starts as a metric.

Races are tougher than works, so I think it\'s a fair measurement.  Do you have a better one?
 
> I\'d also note that the one recent horse on your
> list was a late bloomer who started his career on
> grass. Any chance that helped him make 31 starts?

Take away his grass starts, and he still started more times than Zarkava and Sea The Stars combined.
 
> I\'m for racetracks that are as safe as possible,
> for horses and riders, period. Even though \"safe
> racetrack\" will probably always be a contradiction
> in terms.

I don\'t know anyone who isn\'t for a safe racetrack.  Synthetics aren\'t safer, and have been severely life-changing for Douglas and Straight.

[magicnight]

\"As compared to the European list of horses, who were all born between the 1930s and 1970s, with the exception of Sea The Stars?\"

The point wasn\'t about the trans-Atlantic comparison, which I think is silly, anyway. The point is that you are defending today\'s American racing scene by citing horses from the Hoover administration.

\"Races are tougher than works, so I think it\'s a fair measurement. Do you have a better one?\"

No, clearly Exterminator is a better horse than Nijinsky because he started 100 times. How could I argue with that?

Q:\"Any chance that helped him make 31 starts?\"

Non-Answer: \"Take away his grass starts, and he still started more times than Zarkava and Sea The Stars combined.\"

I\'m done. No offense, FC. Good luck at the windows.

[Funny Cide]

magicnight Wrote:
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> \"As compared to the European list of horses, who
> were all born between the 1930s and 1970s, with
> the exception of Sea The Stars?\"
>
> The point wasn\'t about the trans-Atlantic
> comparison, which I think is silly, anyway. The
> point is that you are defending today\'s American
> racing scene by citing horses from the Hoover
> administration.

I\'m defending American dirt horses from the past to current, which includes Zenyatta, Rachel & STS from just this year.  A list of greats over the past century though will extend back aways, and I don\'t see how that\'s offensive.

> \"Races are tougher than works, so I think it\'s a
> fair measurement. Do you have a better one?\"
>
> No, clearly Exterminator is a better horse than
> Nijinsky because he started 100 times. How could I
> argue with that?

I have no idea how one would expect a horse to prove their longevity of both form and soundness except by doing it on the track.  
 
> Q:\"Any chance that helped him make 31 starts?\"
>
> Non-Answer: \"Take away his grass starts, and he
> still started more times than Zarkava and Sea The
> Stars combined.\"
>
> I\'m done. No offense, FC. Good luck at the
> windows.

That\'s ok, I thought it was a non-question, so we\'re even there.

Good luck to you as well.

[NoCarolinaTony]

1)It was intended that way, so glad you got it.

2)I was responding to something that was lame to begin with.

3) I could care less what you think.

NCT

[P-Dub]

NoCarolinaTony Wrote:
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> 1)It was intended that way, so glad you got it.
>
> 2)I was responding to something that was lame to
> begin with.
>
> 3) I could care less what you think.
>
> NCT

If number 3 were true, you don\'t show it very well. Glad it took you 5 days to come up with those witty replies. Time well spent.

[NoCarolinaTony]

P-

Could it be.......that I did not checked the board in 5 days??

Brilliant,

Have another Red Bull, it gives you wings...

NCT

[TGJB]

Guys-- to quote a friend of mine during an argument on the basketball court years ago, I didn\'t come out to stay home. If I want to hear six year olds ranking out other kids I\'ve got one at home.

[NoCarolinaTony]

I hear you.