Tom Proctor

[TheBull]

Yes he did win with a first grasser at CD today, but interesting his horses in Cali and pretty much nationwide don\'t seem to have the same \"punch\" in the lane recently.....hmmmm......must be using different \"hay and oats\" since that Oaklawn positive. Just a coincidence I\'m sure

[Kasept]

There\'s a lot of oafish, insipid and downright ignorant spew written on the internet, but you\'ve managed to hit a glorious new high (low) with this inexcusable smear of as good a horseman as there is in the sport.

An overage for anti-inflammatory Methylprednisolone, used by everyone to treat arthritic joints, is as innocuous a violation as anyone receives. Proctor\'s record in a 30 year career is as close to spotless as there is with one other med fine (equally benign Naproxen, the equine Aleve) 10 years ago.

And as to his horses, last 30 days, 37 starts, 7 wins (19%), 19 ITM (51%).. virtually identical to his numbers over the past 12 months (20% W\'s/51% ITM over 533 starts).

[shanahan]

Well said

[miff]

Facts irrelevant to the conspiracy idiot, innuendo rules.Proctor was white hot in Cali,especially on grass,during spring.

One great perception problem racing has is the reporting of \"nonsense\" type 3,4,5 violations which leads many to jump to conclusions.Overages in the 4,5 class should be eliminated from reporting with an admin type fine attached and a watch list.

Mark Hennig, of all trainers, just had a positive, a real cheat that Hennig.

Related subject, stacking of certain drugs under review.This will lead to great debate about taking away a vets preferred course of treatment vs stricter rules on the use therapeutic drugs which are being abused by many.

[cubfan0316]

if it is a non issue, then why a fine?

[miff]

The rule currently on the books call for a fine/days.A fine in order to have some semblance of the trainer being the absolute insurer of what is given to horses under his control.TAP received a positive in Cali and was fined and suspended for an overage of a legal drug.Shortly after the incident that overage was no longer a violation in Cali because the rule on that med was without merit and was rescinded.

There are several permitted drugs in the same class which are under review for deletion(mainly class 5\'s,some class 4\'s,1-2 class 3\'s)

[TheBull]

Oafish? Insipid? I believe Miff called me an idiot?

Not sure how warranted the personal name calling was....but let\'s move on. Kasept, I\'m not concerned with his last 12 months or his 30yr career. I never hinted the guy was doing anything wrong 20 years ago, so giving me his career bio/resume of drug charges or lack thereof, is irrelevant, dare I say insipid. I am talking about from January-April of this year when his stuff was so hot in Cali and Tampa. I\'d prefer to look at figures vs win % and ITM as supporting arguments, but let\'s use your method for now.

I\'m interested in his stats from Jan 1 thru April 15 (or whenever the positive was) vs his stats from April 16 thru today, if anyone has them?

[colt]

I don\'t play Tampa, but Proctor generally has his stable running on all cylinders at SA before leveling off near the end of the traditional winter-spring meet at SA (Boxing Day through mid April) - note he has mostly older turf horses plus a sprinkle of lightly-raced horses, which after hitting their peaks with initial forward moves tend to pair/off - not a move-up trainer in my book.

TG FIGURE-BASED for all his starters (last 90 Days - Starts/Tops%/Pairs%/Off%/X%)
Through - 4/13/14>>97 25 36 30 9
Through - 6/29/14>>84 11 42 33 14

[richiebee]

There are any number of reasons a hot barn can cool off.

I think the fact that you chose to discuss one possible reason to the exclusion of all others, with the addition of the \"hay oats and water \" snark might not have been entirely fair.

Bull would you care to cite some other reasons why a trainer might cool off not related to PEDs?

[NormandyInvasion]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Facts irrelevant to the conspiracy idiot, innuendo
> rules.Proctor was white hot in Cali,especially on
> grass,during spring.
>
> One great perception problem racing has is the
> reporting of \"nonsense\" type 3,4,5 violations
> which leads many to jump to conclusions.Overages
> in the 4,5 class should be eliminated from
> reporting with an admin type fine attached and a
> watch list.
>
> Mark Hennig, of all trainers, just had a positive,
> a real cheat that Hennig.
>
> Related subject, stacking of certain drugs under
> review.This will lead to great debate about taking
> away a vets preferred course of treatment vs
> stricter rules on the use therapeutic drugs which
> are being abused by many.

Miff, a positive for a therapeutic drug is still a positive.  I won\'t claim that it\'s necessarily as nefarious as cobra venom or something, but there\'s a reason why racing says that horses can\'t run on X therapeutic drug, and it\'s because it can mask pain, etc.  As I understand it, the threshold levels are generous, so when there\'s a positive for the therapeutic med, it\'s significant enough to warrant the penalty.

So while I agree with you that I don\'t generally think it\'s as big of a deal when there is an overage for a therapeutic med, I don\'t think that the penalties should be done away with or that they shouldn\'t be reported.  What I think should be done is to classify the overage and penalties so that those who aren\'t familiar with the drug can know how the drug is deemed by racing authorities.

Remember that the thyroid med that is all the rage is both legal and has a therapeutic legitimacy yet we know that it\'s being abused and has likely cost the lives of quite a number of horses.

[TheBull]

Absolutely, it does not necessarily mean a juice/no juice pattern. Nor does it mean when a guy gets hot after being cold that it means no juice / juice. As far as non PED related reasons for sudden changes, I think a main one would have to be horses running big efforts and now being later into their campaigns and \"over the top\". Eventually big efforts catch up to most horses, juice or no juice. There could also be a change in vets/meds (in the legal way). Another big factor, especially with multi-state mega stables, is the assistant overseeing the barn. The assistant essentially runs the show day to day, so a change in the help, specifically the assistant trainer, can affect performance IMO. These are all in addition to the obvious of getting better horses, or seasonally gearing up for a particular meet.

Are these plausible explanations for any trainer, including Mr. Proctor? Absolutely. The man is a fine trainer and he could have been gearing up for SA and Tampa, only to see those horses decline slightly after running so well early this year. Would love to hear JB\'s opinion on Proctor this year so far, if he has noticed anything out of the ordinary. I am certainly capable of retracting and admitting being too harsh if the situation calls for it.

[Topcat]

richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are any number of reasons a hot barn can
> cool off.
>
> I think the fact that you chose to discuss one
> possible reason to the exclusion of all others,
> with the addition of the \"hay oats and water \"
> snark might not have been entirely fair.
>
> Bull would you care to cite some other reasons why
> a trainer might cool off not related to PEDs?


Previously\'\"hot\" barns frequently cool off after their most promising horses run through the bulk of their favorable conditions.  Hipsters already well-aware of this, of course.