Surgeries and procedures

[Caradoc]

Frank: I\'m an owner but let\'s face it, the private property argument has been dead a long time. There are all sorts of rules that now not only require disclosure of treatments owners provide to their horses (such as the administration of Lasix and Bute, gelding a horse, etc.), but require that this information be provided to the betting public.  The reason for requiring disclosure to the betting public is that it is relevant, material information for a bettor to have in analyzing a race, and that to have a fair betting environment, all bettors should have access to all such relevant, material information.  All I am advocating is expanding the concept of what treatments are likely to significantly affect performance and requiring disclosure of those treatments as well.  

Peter

[TGJB]

1-- Those of us around when lasix was being used but not published know that it became an inside information game. We are almost certainly in that situation now with other drugs.

2-- The proper analogy is not \"private property\", but insider trading. We are asking the public at large to invest money in a game where under certain circumstances they are at a decided disadvantage. No one is saying that injuries must be announced-- but significant human intervention like performance enhancing drugs and operations should be.

3-- It doesn\'t matter that the information would not be useful to someone because the market might (arguably) then account for it- at least people would be in a position to decide what to do with it. Right now, some people have it, and some don\'t.

[David57]

The best analogy is the NFL, even though betting on the games isn\'t even legal in 49 states. They do a great job of requiring that injuries be disclosed, and even categorized (doubtful, probable, etc.). The integrity of the game overrides the privacy concerns of the players. Despite the full disclosure of all material information, there are still people who can consistently make money betting football. The key is, no one who bets on football worries that the game isn\'t on the up and up and that someone else has inside information. Horse racing should be held to the same standard.

[davidrex]

     Richie,

Are you saying that if you wagered on a horse that lost his race to another animal that had minor surgery....THATS OK....but those who are privy to such info from vets etc. are free to fatten their wallets[OWNERS] at the handicappers expense,is a valid gaming ploy?

Gaming cos. in other realms of betting bend over to keep a level playing field.Only OWNERS feel priveledged to exclude this type of info to the third figure in this equation...the bettor.

     Track owners accomadate owners because they are dumb and rich enough to pay for the attraction...bettors are a solitary group by nature,so very little needs  to be done to \"divide and conquer.

Richie...are you an owner?

PARTYpokerON!

[Barry Irwin]

Yes, this is the real Barry Irwin, president of Team Valor.

I have read this thread.

First of all, Team Valor over the last 8 or so years has probably had more than a dozen myectomy and myotomy operations performed on its horses.

None of them ever resulted in an improvement of form. . .until last week!

First Wicked Funny broke her maiden at Monmouth, then Becrux won a little stakes at Del Mar.

I seriously doubt I would have prospered as a gambler if I had bet each one of the horses that had undergone surgery for a breathing prolem.

There are several different kind of operations available to correct breathing problems in the Thoroughbred. Some work, others don\'t.

I agree that horseplayers are entitled to information on these procedures.

I suggest that the best way to do this is to write a bunch of letters to Jerry Brown and have him submit them to the stewards at the NYRA. If they take the lead and make a rule, other jurisdictions will follow.

Never underestimate the collective power of horseplayers!

FYI, next week we will enter a filly named La Ina. She ran third debuting in this country at Keeneland in the spring and came back with an entrapped epiglottis. She underwent surgery.

It is improbable that any 3 or 4yo filly in America exists that can match strides with this Grade 1 runner-up (beaten a head in the German Oaks last year) going long on grass.

Feel free to bet all you can on her. Mortgage your house!

[Barry Irwin]

Last week I posted:

FYI, next week we will enter a filly named La Ina. She ran third debuting in this country at Keeneland in the spring and came back with an entrapped epiglottis. She underwent surgery.

It is improbable that any 3 or 4yo filly in America exists that can match strides with this Grade 1 runner-up (beaten a head in the German Oaks last year) going long on grass.

Feel free to bet all you can on her. Mortgage your house!

Tonight I post:

You are welcome. The filly duly won today and paid $7.90.

[Michael D.]

congratulations on the win. after what you posted, i was surprised that she paid so well. pretty quick last 1/8 there, looks like she will be tough going longer, especially with that tactical speed. but come on, no filly exists in the US that can match strides with her going long? none?

[shanahan]

Congrats to Team Valor!  Another terrific find, and I applaud your efforts to bring more fans into racing via ownership (I\'m on your list)...but the class aspect falls on posts like that...it\'s not necessary.

[Barry Irwin]

It is improbable that any 3 or 4yo filly in America exists that can match strides with this Grade 1 runner-up (beaten a head in the German Oaks last year) going long on grass

(It was late at night when I wrote that. What I meant to say was in the first allowance condition! Sorry.)

Barry

[richiebee]

Barry congrats on TVs victory yesterday. I also enjoyed your tribute to Doc Harthill at the back of the recent Blood Horse. I remember Doc Harthill from my days at the Fair Grounds in the early 80s, when Louis Roussel purchased the track from the Dorignac family and basically gave Doc Harthill free run of the place.

Pete Axthelm once said \"The only thing better than a lie is a true story which no one can believe.\" I have some of those sort of stories about Doc Harthill, but now is not the time for them.

If you have been following these threads, you know I asked a question yesterday and would love an answer. This spring at Oaklawn, you fired your newly hired private trainer after a horse he saddled came back positive. I admire your zero tolerance stance and your belief in \"hay oats and water\".

My question again: If Todd Pletcher had an animal come back positive (not necessarily a TV horse) would he continue to train Team Valor horses?

[TGJB]

Barry, that was pretty funny. But you forgot to add, \"if she saves ground both turns\".

[Caradoc]

 . . . and gets her head down at the wire.

Just curious . . . would we have received an apology had she lost the head-bob?

[Barry Irwin]

If you have been following these threads, you know I asked a question yesterday and would love an answer. This spring at Oaklawn, you fired your newly hired private trainer after a horse he saddled came back positive. I admire your zero tolerance stance and your belief in \"hay oats and water\".

My question again: If Todd Pletcher had an animal come back positive (not necessarily a TV horse) would he continue to train Team Valor horses?

Here is your answer:

First of all, what Ralph Nicks treated the horse with at Belmont was not an illegal substance. The rules state that no injections are allowed on raceday in New York other than Lasix, which must be supervised. He broke the rule by administering the shot. It could have been water and it still would have been illegal. His intent was not pure.

Secondly, Todd Pletcher under New York technically has been ruled to have had a starter come back with a \"positive.\"

Are we going to take away our horses from him?

No.

Reason: Todd\'s test is a case of contamination, as it is 1 nanogram, which is most jurisdictions would be considered below any reasonable threshold.

[Barry Irwin]

Just curious . . . would we have received an apology had she lost the head-bob?

No apology. That was a guaranteed winner. So, under the guarantee, I would merely have supplied you with a second winner!!!

Here is something very interesting: our last 3 winners all were making their first start since operations to correct breathing problems.

This is after years of performing several such operations with limited to no success.

Racing obviously is a game of streaks!

Now that I am 1 of 1 as a tout, I plan to retire and rest on my laurels.

[HP]

1999 -- \"(Henry) Collazo\'s was the first positive finding for a Class 1 narcotic in Florida since the state agreed to drop a complaint against trainers David Donk, Todd Pletcher, and Mark Hennig for trace amounts of cocaine found in their horses in 1999.\"

July 2005 -- \"Eclipse Award-winning trainer Todd Pletcher received a 45-day suspension and was fined $3,000 on Saturday as a result of a post-race finding of the drug mepivacaine in one of his horses last year at Saratoga Race Course.

Aside from saying he would appeal the ruling, Pletcher offered no comment, citing the advice of his attorney.\"

His intent is \"pure?\"  Come on.  That is pretty lame.  This is nothing new.  Pletcher\'s more successful and probably cuts a slicker figure than Ralph Nicks.  That\'s about all I see.  

HP