"How Veterinary science, synthetic soils and robotics are changing thoroughbred racing"

[davidrex]

     I don\'t know how.I try but it doesn\'t work .There I said it.
     By the way did you also notice where this thread has ended.
     Literaly thousands of folks in this business are about to find new careers...not because of India or China...and we end up w/some clown wanting horses to go 1 1/2 miles.
PARTYpokerON!

[jimbo66]

CtC,

Whether you are right or wrong about your assertions, the fact remains that you CANNOT measure U.S. dirt horses based on 12 mark performance.  There is 1 stakes race at 12 marks on dirt in the U.S.  Unless racing goes back to the future and race long, your criteria is not valid in this country on dirt.

It is like an NFL fan saying that the best teams run the ball 80% of the team.  That used to be the case, 50 years ago, but not any longer.  The game has evolved.  I think football has evolved for the better.

I think horse racing has not.  But we are stuck with what we have.  

[Thehoarsehorseplayer]

You\'ve inadvertently raised an interesting point namely, is is possible to have a a horse achieve greatness on the track today?

There was a great quote from Greg Gilchrist trainer of Lost in the Fog in the Racing Form a few weeks ago which he attributed to his father, \"Horses don\'t win you races, conditions do.\"

Which I think is one of the great handicapping adages of all times.  But then I\'m of the school that thinks the art of handicapping is understanding how trainers bring horses into spots to take advantage of the conditions.  What I do know is that horse racing, that is any given race (with the possible exception of a match race) has never been about proving who is the best horse.  It\'s about proving who the best horse is under the conditions.
Subsequently, great horses were the ones who proved themselves under the widest array of conditions, not least of which was carrying great weight or running great distances.

Unfortunatley, horse racing is increasingly becoming this stately Victorian mansion that is getting its architectural details gutted, and its wainscoating painted over by modernizers ignorant of the traditions. Now we all want better plumbing and better electricity, central air and heating, but do we really want the engraved mahogany molding stripped. But with the process of eliminating a myriad of challenges I think, like the ignorant homeowner, you\'re unthinkingly elimating the possibility of true greatness from the sport.
 
But then greatness might simply be in the eye of the beholder.  A certain esteemed Racing Form columnist was gushing about he had seen true greatness when he saw Ghostzapper destroy a field at Belmont last fall.  But Ghostzapper was carrying 123 pounds.  And there is no greatness in racing carrying 123 pounds in my book.  Rather, greatness to me was Forego carry 133 or 134 picking off horse after horse in the stretch at Belmont while 35,000 rabid fans, knowing in their heart they were watching something special, screamed, \"Shoe, Shoe, Shoe\"  urging Wille S as he guided his horse to not only heart stopping victory but to his deserved place among the pantheon of greats by virtue of overcoming the impossible impost.  This was one of the great traditions of horse racing; that horses could prove themselves the equal of their forefathers by carrying the weight the great horses before them carried.  But hey, now it\'s gone like the mahogany molding.

Does it matter?

Does it matter that the sport of kings has increasingly become the banana republic of sports?  That race tracks just get tackier and tackier and tackier?
Maybe not, because the management of race tracks are cashing their pay checks, and the big breeders are making their mega-millions, and the public seems willing to accept any watered down crap you give them.  On the other hand, it\'s kind of a shame that many people are never going to experience the real thrill of watching real greatness proven on the track.i
Let me return to my first question: Is it possible to have a horse acheive true greatness on the track today?  Maybe, via the Triple Crown, because that is a great acomplishment.  And yet the irony here, is that I was completely persuaded by Jerry Brown\'s arguement from two Springs ago, that as presently structured the Triple Crown is just too suicidal for these young horses.  That the time between races needs to be stretched out for the good of the horses and the good of the game.  As a tradionalist I initially balked at the concept, but what is right for the horse has to be right in my book.  And in any case, the reality is that the Triple Crown schedule we now know as tradition hasn\'t always been the Triple Crown schedule. I don\'t even think that every Triple Crown winner won the Derby, Preakness and Belmont in the order were familiar with.  Still, the possibility exists that by making the Triple Crown easier on the horses, you might make it easier for horses to win.  To the point that winning a Triple Crown mght not be a mark of true greatness it seems to be today.
Just some thoughts, which I guess turned out to be a defense of CTC\'s demand that a horse\'s quality be tested by 10 furlong races.  If there not going to carry any weight at least make them run a demanding distance occasionally.  They are supposed to be Thoroughbreds not quarter horses, afterall.


 

[Mall]

Thanks to Deb for the link. I don\'t want to sound overly pessimistic, but Pratt\'s work is 20 or more yrs old, & I\'m all but certain it was not considered at all in connection with any of the many new tracks which have been installed over the last 5 yrs. In fact, I would be willing to wager that most of the individuals in charge of installing those new tracks has still never heard of Pratt, Peterson, or any of the other individuals mentioned in the article, & I\'d be willing to lay substantial odds that the author of the article, as well as a number of posters here, have a better understanding of the issues & science.  Maybe the economics of polytrack will eventually force widespread change but,like everything else in horseracing, it\'s probably going to take a long, long, time. In a recent & mostly unnoticed interview D. Wayne, taking on what he is increasingly calling his role as a statesman, essentially said that the reason he\'d like to see casinos take over the tracks is not for the slot revenue, but because of their superior managerial skills. Sad but true. There\'s no reason to think that the racetracks\' longstanding inability to attract talented managers is about to change anytime soon, & it therefore seems to me unrealistic in the \"short term\" to expect much other than more of the same.          

Maybe what we need is more trainers that breeze and gallop their horses enough to get them very fit and then actually run them more often. That might work better than giving them very fast 5F/6F WOs every 5 days/ once a week week and running them once every six weeks. It seems to me the latter method gets you to a quicker peak and may reduce bounces, but it gets fewer overall performances and a lot more injuries. I remember reading a book in the 70s comparing training methods and competency/incompetency. Today\'s typical top trainer would be classified by that book as a guy that ruins a lot of champions by working them too fast in the morning. The adjustment that has been made to that method is to give them more time between races, but maybe the correct adjustment is to just gallop them more often and longer, breeze easy once in awhile, and RUN more often!  I thought Tim Ritchey was doing a great job with AA. I doubt the injury was related to the method. Maybe AA is not a throw back. Maybe Ritchie is a throw back and the horses are not all that much different.  AA certainly didn\'t look like a 12 furlong horse as a 2 year old, but on Belmont day Ritchie had him looking like a Display Handicap horse (what was that a 2 1/4 mile race).

[richiebee]

Some good thoughts, but is it politic to discuss works on a TG site?

But since you brought it up, H. Allen Jerkens once said that he felt horses would stay sounder longer if they undertook their daily training on grass. Of course, in terms of workouts, the Chief is always fun to follow because he has been known to throw some wicked preps into his horses. I seem to recall Kelly Kip blowing out in 32.3 the morning before one of his races.

If you follow Mott and McGaughey, you will rarely see them work an animal past five furlongs.

The Woodward is a travesty. I hope the Euros are watching, and making their travel plans.

[RICH]

I remember a horse that Tagg had back in 88-90?. SOCIAL RETIREE, who was owned by Tagg and was a ny bred who one his first 3 races in ny on the dirt. He was eventually switched to grass. I loved this horse, I think he won a gr 3 at 20-1 and also the PENN derby. I would love to see the sheet on this one, any chance guys.

Richie,

Mott and McGaughey are two guys I had in mind as training in a more old style way.

Supposedly there are fewer injuries on the new artificial surfaces also.

[bdhsheets]

richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The Woodward is a travesty. I hope the Euros are
> watching, and making their travel plans.


They can make their travel plans, but it\'ll be for naught, not that they don\'t have nice horses.

The game has changed dramatically the last couple years and the Euros are out of the picture, perhaps forever in the Classic.

Along with the monster figs being earned are monster pace figs that go with them. You\'ll always see the monster fig hoss and the next runners 5++++ lengths back, crushed by the early exertion. Will the European entries be able to cope? Me thinks not.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Have to admit, have no idea which european horses are even considered standouts. Doesn\'t seem much sense to review them until they are before you in a race.

Legitimate insight about the juicers bringing serious pace to the new super figures, but still think the rubber meets the road for the medicine boys beginning at 10 marks.

So how have the europeans faired in placing in the superjuice era? Depends upon when you think the Superjuice era began I expect. For my money it began with Aptitude at Saratoga for the 10 mark Saratoga Breeders Cup Handicap in 2000.

2000: Giant\'s Causeway-2nd
2001: Sahkee          -2nd

Pre Superjuice era you had Arcangues of course and Swain.

Still think legitimate horseflesh generally overcomes the medicine at 10 marks. If a top class 10 mark Euro horse lines up against Bellemania, Commentator and St. Liam I\'m not gonna be dissuaded.

P.S. in looking at the recent Classic history, I noticed Phil Johnson\'s Volponi. I\'m so glad he got to enjoy the pinnacle with his wife. He was deserving.

Ahhh that Cryptoclearance, what an honest horse he was. Those were the days.


bdhsheets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> richiebee Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > The Woodward is a travesty. I hope the Euros
> are
> > watching, and making their travel plans.
>
>
> They can make their travel plans, but it\'ll be for
> naught, not that they don\'t have nice horses.
>
> The game has changed dramatically the last couple
> years and the Euros are out of the picture,
> perhaps forever in the Classic.
>
> Along with the monster figs being earned are
> monster pace figs that go with them. You\'ll always
> see the monster fig hoss and the next runners
> 5++++ lengths back, crushed by the early exertion.
> Will the European entries be able to cope? Me
> thinks not.
>
>
>

[STB]

I\'m no scientist, but it\'s hard for me to believe that illegal medication would matter LESS at more demanding distances, given that many of the selections from the juice bar (e.g., EPO, milkshakes) seem designed to increase stamina.

[richiebee]

Bdh:

  Here\'s my capsule: AFLEET ALEX, out. The way racing has been going, possibility (mathmatical) that either BELLA or FLOWER ALLEY gets dinged up in the JC Gold and does not progress to BC. PERFECT DRIFT loves to hang in the late stages of big races. COMMENTATOR.. 10 marks? SUN KING has won this year when he has been odds on, otherwise no factor. BORREGO? I don\'t know. Does Madeline Paulson still own ROCK HARD TEN? Is she Mrs. T Boone Pickens yet? To me a weak bunch, hopefully we get a full gate of 12 and a good betting race. Oh and FUNNY CIDE will run..but only if the temperature is between 68 and 76 degrees. Euros always add wagering mystique, and they wouldn\'t have to be great to win this year.

  I will be watching with interest to see if Bailey has more success than Prado did in getting St. Liam to change leads in the lane (watch replays of his losses to Clownzapper and Commentator)

  Is \"BDH\" a reference to a certain Chicago racing writer who referred to himself as a \"broken down horseplayer\"?

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Theres been a few recently to support your skepticism. Ghostzap, Flower Alley, Peace Rules.

I think theres reasons for those results though. Flower Alley is much better bred than folks give him credit for and thats on Both sides. (Not enamored with the 3x3 to Mr. Prospector though and if he goes down in the next race I\'ll smirk at that)  He did catch the 2nd cut in the Travers though.

Ghostzap was a fast horse, but that Classic fell apart upon a biased track but for the part that it was negotiated. Of all the races I\'ve viewed in my life, it stands alone for portraying a picture that was removed from reality.

Peace Rules Suburban is hard to distinguish. It was an honest win. It was in very fast time and the track probably carried Peace Rules a bit, but hes certainly one that ran better late than most of the juice boys.

This is my theory, not asking anyone to buy into it. Would prefer that you dont...lol I just think the pain comes quicker to inferior athletes and the juice staves it off for a time is all.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Hoarse, someone missed this post when you entered it.

Have to say you wrote some compelling food for thought and it was a joy to read.

I\'m sorry that I have to take exception with your suggestion to alter the triple crown spacing. In my opinion that would so dilute the accomplishment it would render it a shell of its former importance. Afleet Alex almost won this Triple as Smarty almost did before him. Its not supposed to be easy. Its supposed to go to a horse that lays over his competition.

Tim Ritchey provided these quasi horsemen with a roadmap on how to win the thing. If Alex hadn\'t of gotten sick for the Rebel I think he\'d of done it. I don\'t want it won with five weeks rest and two shots of White Mercedes. Thats how a number of these guys would attempt it.

I say earn it the old fashioned way.

p.s. Its 12 marks that will save racing, not 10.


Thehoarsehorseplayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You\'ve inadvertently raised an interesting point
> namely, is is possible to have a a horse achieve
> greatness on the track today?
>
> There was a great quote from Greg Gilchrist
> trainer of Lost in the Fog in the Racing Form a
> few weeks ago which he attributed to his father,
> \"Horses don\'t win you races, conditions do.\"
>
> Which I think is one of the great handicapping
> adages of all times.  But then I\'m of the school
> that thinks the art of handicapping is
> understanding how trainers bring horses into spots
> to take advantage of the conditions.  What I do
> know is that horse racing, that is any given race
> (with the possible exception of a match race) has
> never been about proving who is the best horse.
> It\'s about proving who the best horse is under the
> conditions.
> Subsequently, great horses were the ones who
> proved themselves under the widest array of
> conditions, not least of which was carrying great
> weight or running great distances.
>
> Unfortunatley, horse racing is increasingly
> becoming this stately Victorian mansion that is
> getting its architectural details gutted, and its
> wainscoating painted over by modernizers ignorant
> of the traditions. Now we all want better plumbing
> and better electricity, central air and heating,
> but do we really want the engraved mahogany
> molding stripped. But with the process of
> eliminating a myriad of challenges I think, like
> the ignorant homeowner, you\'re unthinkingly
> elimating the possibility of true greatness from
> the sport.
>  
> But then greatness might simply be in the eye of
> the beholder.  A certain esteemed Racing Form
> columnist was gushing about he had seen true
> greatness when he saw Ghostzapper destroy a field
> at Belmont last fall.  But Ghostzapper was
> carrying 123 pounds.  And there is no greatness in
> racing carrying 123 pounds in my book.  Rather,
> greatness to me was Forego carry 133 or 134
> picking off horse after horse in the stretch at
> Belmont while 35,000 rabid fans, knowing in their
> heart they were watching something special,
> screamed, \"Shoe, Shoe, Shoe\"  urging Wille S as he
> guided his horse to not only heart stopping
> victory but to his deserved place among the
> pantheon of greats by virtue of overcoming the
> impossible impost.  This was one of the great
> traditions of horse racing; that horses could
> prove themselves the equal of their forefathers by
> carrying the weight the great horses before them
> carried.  But hey, now it\'s gone like the mahogany
> molding.
>
> Does it matter?
>
> Does it matter that the sport of kings has
> increasingly become the banana republic of sports?
>  That race tracks just get tackier and tackier and
> tackier?
> Maybe not, because the management of race tracks
> are cashing their pay checks, and the big breeders
> are making their mega-millions, and the public
> seems willing to accept any watered down crap you
> give them.  On the other hand, it\'s kind of a
> shame that many people are never going to
> experience the real thrill of watching real
> greatness proven on the track.i
> Let me return to my first question: Is it possible
> to have a horse acheive true greatness on the
> track today?  Maybe, via the Triple Crown, because
> that is a great acomplishment.  And yet the irony
> here, is that I was completely persuaded by Jerry
> Brown\'s arguement from two Springs ago, that as
> presently structured the Triple Crown is just too
> suicidal for these young horses.  That the time
> between races needs to be stretched out for the
> good of the horses and the good of the game.  As a
> tradionalist I initially balked at the concept,
> but what is right for the horse has to be right in
> my book.  And in any case, the reality is that the
> Triple Crown schedule we now know as tradition
> hasn\'t always been the Triple Crown schedule. I
> don\'t even think that every Triple Crown winner
> won the Derby, Preakness and Belmont in the order
> were familiar with.  Still, the possibility exists
> that by making the Triple Crown easier on the
> horses, you might make it easier for horses to
> win.  To the point that winning a Triple Crown
> mght not be a mark of true greatness it seems to
> be today.
> Just some thoughts, which I guess turned out to be
> a defense of CTC\'s demand that a horse\'s quality
> be tested by 10 furlong races.  If there not going
> to carry any weight at least make them run a
> demanding distance occasionally.  They are
> supposed to be Thoroughbreds not quarter horses,
> afterall.
>
>
>  
>

[bdhsheets]

richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bdh:
>
>
>   Is \"BDH\" a reference to a certain Chicago racing
> writer who referred to himself as a \"broken down
> horseplayer\"?

Yup, Dave \"The King\" Feldman. I still have a \"BDH\" button around somewhere. He didn\'t believe in breeding angles always saying \"My father was a tailor and I can\'t sew a button.\" LOL

He actually picked the winner of the Ky Derby once [Sea Hero] and didn\'t let people forget it, muuuuuhahahahaaaaah.

At various times in his life besides being a columnist for the Sun-Times and Daily News, was an owner, trainer, track announcer, author and publicist. A colorful old goat in his day...

A Euro possibility in the Classic might be Doyen. His current form is lousy and he looks as though he might need lasix. Royally bred top and bottom for the sod, but until you try ya never know. Godolphin just might give it a whack.