Woodward

[twoshoes]

Clown if you don\'t remember Pop John you\'re not even remotely interesting to talk to. Lenzini early 80\'s. Cheap but fast. Also, Loach wasn\'t necessarily intended to win but had some quality. Thirdly, point out the Zito positives if you would please. Strike The Gold was a stone cold closer that would benefit from a legitamate rabbit in soft paced races. St. Liam has tactical speed. As I pointed out, rabbits are one thing, if Dutrow were sure a little extra pace was enough he wouldn\'t have run TWO. Yes, St. Liam won in a gallop, probably would have anyway. The method sucked... and as I pointed out earlier I think Zito and Stevens would have done well to play their game anyway. Lastly, everyone should play sportsmanship. It\'s what the game was built on. Dutrow would run a rabbit in a match race if he could. Oh... and I cashed on that sickening pick 4 because my key won earlier on so this cost me maybe half and I accounted for that in the wager. So I don\'t have an axe to grind but for the sleaze factor. Don\'t get you sometimes Clown... but don\'t need to.
Also - Clearly not a Dr. Fager.. who suggested that??? All I wrote was that if Commentator laid down some fractions and disposed of the junk St. Liam would have had to work harder to get where we got.

> Goldfarb picked up a decent chunk
> rigging the race for his trainer and he deserves
> every penny he got because at least he entered.

>Agreed

Thanks - I feel much better.

[kev]

Something else I like to add in this, from a sheet reading stand point. Both horses was coming off tops, both on Rag\'s and TG. If you look at TG when Comm bounce the first time it was to a I think a 5 and S.Liam bounce to a -0.2 something like that, thing is when looking I had to say both will bounce but how high, I always go back to those bounce numbers to see. So you could say Comm. might bounce to a 4.2 atless being he is good form, and SL might backed up to a -0.2 or little better, like to see the number\'s come back on this.  

[twoshoes]

>Zito clearly knows there is no sportsmanship at this level. It\'s about winning. You bring a horse to the ball that can dance and if he can\'t dance you don\'t deserve to win.
>
Well... you have a point that I missed in my initial reply. Apply this to Dutrow... We all know St\' Liam can dance so why add two minuets.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

King, I\'m sorry, I don\'t see any similarity whatsoever to overtly running horses against a one dimensional speedball and striking a clandestine agreement to fix a race\'s pace. They are not even remotely similar. The one is out in the open and sunshine illuminates it. The other is an agreement in a dark corner.

I hope Rodriguez chirped like a screaming banshee. I would have:
\"Companyhator you gutless filly....come on get some\"

kingcong39 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuckles, to say you are missing saddle\'s and
> twoshoes point is beyond obvious. What Dutrow did
> was the exact same sort of thing you were the 1st
> to post, scream, and rant about when the article
> was written about Ramsey and Frankel talking about
> the pace scenario between Roses In May and
> Ghostzapper in last year\'s Classic, and yet this
> time you don\'t agree? This is just as bad. It is
> not the fact that they were rabbits, it was the
> fact that Rodriguez on Crafty Player clearly was
> strangling his horse back to stay to the outside
> of Commentator, and when Commentator ran up inside
> of him, Rodriguez shook him up and sent him hard,
> not to be sure Commentator was gassed out, but to
> harass him. Who knows if he was chirping and doing
> anything else to harass Commentator. This is what
> everybody has a problem with, and it is high time
> Dutrow is told that he does not own racing like he
> thinks at the moment.
> I also like your accusing Zito of juicing while
> defending a known juicer. Now that is a good one.
> lol
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at 09/11/05 07:26PM by
> kingcong39.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

I dont remember Pop John. But I wasn\'t betting much until about 1985 and I started at Hialeah.

There was one part of your post that pretty much made everything else we were forced into discussing moot. The owner of the rabbits cashing checks. They were legally entered.

Heres the thing. If Zito is a decent trainer and has more game than well bred horses and first back pops. He should be able to take the time out to get Companyhator to rate. Same is true of Bellamania. If he can\'t do that, what good is he? Roman Ruler is rating now, but he has a real trainer.

twoshoes Wrote:
>
> > Goldfarb picked up a decent chunk
> > rigging the race for his trainer and he
> deserves
> > every penny he got because at least he
> entered.
>
> >Agreed
>
> Thanks - I feel much better.

[beyerguy]

CtC,

For the last time, this isn\'t about a horse facing pace pressure having to have things his own way.  This is about a horse basically being mugged by two horses that did a lot more than just try to set a fast pace.  I couldn\'t care less about Commentator or Zito.

I\'ll leave it at this, the OFFICIAL chart comment, and no, this is not a joke:

\"COMMENTATOR broke well and argued the  pace while under attack from both sides, disposed of his assailants after three  quarters but was in no shape to handle the winner and gave way in the final  furlong.\"

Who thinks Seattle Slew would have laughed at Dutow\'s rabbits and spurted clear of St Liam at the top of the stretch?

Regardless of figures etc... races like the Woodward put SS\'s performance at 12F in perspective. He put away a similar sprinter and a saddle slipped Affirmed and was coming again against a multiple Grade 1 winner deep closer like Exceller at \"12\" furlongs!  Another jump or two and he wins. Freaking amazing!

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

beyer,

My point is we just are not discussing anything of merit. If the chart read the following you might have a case:

\"Companyhator away in good order was soundly bumped by Storm Boot, taken in hand by Stevens he was immediately assaulted from the outside when Rodriguez on Crafty Player repeatedly tattooed him on the nose with the whip shrieking with each strike \"This little piggy loves daylight\". Storm Boot bore out and intimidated the hell out of Companyhator and then Rojas wound up with an elbow pile driver to Companyhators temple stunning the fastest horse in the world. Rojas laughing hysterically was heard to scream \"Steel Cage Match, Steel Cage Match baby\". Companyhator bleeding profusely from the nose and ear surged for the lead and the bleeding immediately stopped due to the six quarts of \"anti bleed\" circulating throughout his system. From behind, Rodriquez on Crafty Player threw a piccadillo into Companyhators flank chirping gleefully \"You can run filly, but you can\'t hide\". Rojas on Storm Boot was heard to yell out. \"Come back here, I\'m gonna kill you and then I\'m gonna kill your stable and burn your barn down.\" Companyhator weakened from the verbal and physical assault by the matadors became some of the best Alpo ever canned.\"

I don\'t have much regard for pure front end horses. Its like this. If all you got is silly break neck speed, you better have a whole lot of it. If you don\'t, if what you need is a race where it all goes your own way or you get beat by 15 lengths, I ain\'t got no sympathy. It was all fair as fair can be and they should do it again. When they do I just hope the field is big enough to bet a perfecta and trifecta with dogfood out of the money.

beyerguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CtC,
>
> For the last time, this isn\'t about a horse facing
> pace pressure having to have things his own way.
> This is about a horse basically being mugged by
> two horses that did a lot more than just try to
> set a fast pace.  I couldn\'t care less about
> Commentator or Zito.
>
> I\'ll leave it at this, the OFFICIAL chart comment,
> and no, this is not a joke:
>
> \"COMMENTATOR broke well and argued the  pace while
> under attack from both sides, disposed of his
> assailants after three  quarters but was in no
> shape to handle the winner and gave way in the
> final  furlong.\"

[jimbo66]

Chuckles,

I would have thought by now that I would be mature enough to ignore the crap you occasionally post, but I can\'t.

WHo cares what you think of front runners.  Anybody with any knowledge of horse racing knows that the tactics employed by Dutrow were very shady.  Strangling part of an entry back to sit outside Commentator, while the other part ran a fast pace, all to set up a separately owned entrant, from the same trainer, is bull---- and the type of stuff we don\'t need in racing.  Just like the negotiated pace from last year\'s BC.  No, they aren\'t perfect correlations, but both suck for horse racing.  Commentator is one dimensional and Saint Liam is the better horse and would have won without the rabbits.  No argument.  Commentator is not great.  No argument.  

And why exactly is somebody that claims to have not seen a horse race until 1985, comstantly comparing horses to Dr. Fager, who ran in the 60\'s?  Just to pile more crap on the board?  

I guess Ruth is the best baseball player you ever didn\'t see?  Or was it Wee Willie Keeler?  

Oh, last point, Saint Liam, Commentator and all the other horses that will run in the BC Classic, all stink, because they haven\'t won at 12 marks.......

CTC,

I think you are missing the small distinction that beyerguy is making. I don\'t think he has a problem with 1 rabbit or even 2 rabbits going out fast. I think he has a problem with the intimidation aspects of the challenges.  

[beyerguy]

Not only that, but UNCOUPLED horses delibrately helping another.  People actually were allowed to bet on the entry (morons, of course!)

[kev]

I don\'t get it, so this horse COMM, can\'t ever run along with other horses ever?? What is Nick going to do now??

[kev]

This is what Nick said:  Nick Zito, the trainer of Commentator and Sir Shackleton, felt that one rabbit would have been sufficient for Dutrow to use.

\"I think he would have won anyway with one rabbit,\" Zito said. \"With two rabbits, obviously there\'s no question he was double-teamed. There\'s nothing against the rules.\"

It\'s that simple there\'s nothing against the rules.....It\'s Richard D. what did you all expect??

[mkram]

It would be one of those classic horseracing ironies (and profitable) if Sun King enters and has what it takes to win the BC Classic.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Class, I don\'t believe in Intimidation being outside the rules or being outside sportmanship. Its done all the time. They call it \"race riding\". Pinning a horse along the rail or giving a small hole along the rail and safely taking it away. Floating a horse wide to intimidate him. It happens all the time. The top jockeys are masters at it. All that is required by the officials is that it is done safely and professionally.  Sportmanship is where a jockey or trainer gets beat and says \"congrats they were better\".

I\'ve told this story before so I\'ll summarize. After I bet my first race in 1985...lol, I bet Glitterman to beat a horse named Big Stanley at Calder in a 7 furlong sprint. Glitterman was an exceptional 6 mark horse, but he was advantaged this day at 7 and though the perfecta was only about 22 bucks I had it so many times it was obscene. Glitterman came down and the head Steward said \"He came down because he intimidated the hell out of Big Stanley\". He gave Stanley a small hole on the rail...never closed it...just made him go through it and Stanley balked. They put Stanley up and damage was done by unhappy fans.

Theres is no intimidation in horse racing. Theres no crying either.

classhandicapper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CTC,
>
> I think you are missing the small distinction that
> beyerguy is making. I don\'t think he has a problem
> with 1 rabbit or even 2 rabbits going out fast. I
> think he has a problem with the intimidation
> aspects of the challenges.