Road Warriers

[magicnight]

I\'ll concede Joe Willie being terribly overrated ... amazing what one Supe guarantee and scoring a lot of women will do for your rep. His backfield was none too shabby either, but ... viewed in combination or separately, you would have to consider Biletnikoff/Branch and the Shell/Upshaw line as formidable competition. We may disagree elsewhere, but I bet P-Dub is with me on this one! I\'ll stop here, else we will need a barroom to settle this thing.

[Silver Charm]

Magicnight I\'m with you on that one.

And Stabler could give Namath a run for his money on the afterhours \"last calls\" and the early morning wakeups of, \"What did you say your name was honey\".

There has only been about four occasions where a team giving 20+ points was beaten straight up and Namath was the QB in at least two of them.

Namath threw about a half a dozen picks in those games. A guy who ran a bar frequented by mob types. hmmmmmmm..........

[Halo Fire]

As a Jet fan: I would love Shanahan (the coach), but it looks as though he\'s headed to Dallas.

I wouldn\'t mind Mariucci (he\'s tight with Favre), Billick (can\'t help it, I cashed big on the Ravens Super Bowl), or even Shottenheimer (who has a better REGULAR SEASON win% than Parcells) to break thorough his horrible playoff record.  

As a Metropolitan fan: please, Omar, please....MANNY!

[SoCalMan2]

With all due respect, I think Namath brought something to the game and to the era that cannot be quantified.  If you look at his stats and the records of his teams, yes, they are not great stats or records.  But, not everything you need to know about a horse can be boiled down onto a sheet and not everything you need to know about a football player can be boiled down into stats and records.  

It is plausible that the AFL would not have made it without Namath.  Also, there were some mighty skillful judges of football talent (far more skillful than anybody on this board) who swore that Namath was one of the all time great players (Bear Bryant and his coaching staff come to mind (and if you have not ever looked, Bear Bryant former assistants are a pretty impressive lot)).  The Namath aura had a big impact in games and changed the mindset in football. (But see -- Slingin Sammy Baugh --- who just recently died at age 90 and the NY Times had a great obit -- you can still find it if you search the site).

Again, it is not possible to make a case against the numbers you guys probably correctly cite, but the 1960s-1970s were a transitional time not just in football but in society at large.  Football did not have the central place that it currently has (lest we forget the Heidi game which of course featured Namath and a wild ending of the type he introduced to football -- but football was such second (or third or fourth) fiddle they cut out of a game to go to a childrens movie).  Namath changed the game and also made a far wider audience want to watch it than ever had before.  Imagine if we had a horse who was so amazing that hordes of new fans came to our sport just out of the possibility (but with no guarantee) to glimpse a flash of true greatness!

If you want to equate Namath to a horse on a sheet....he is the type of horse who has thrown some unprecendented gem quality efforts but also has a lot of bounces and a lot of time off for injury (and poor efforts because he played through injuries).  On balance, the whole sheet may not look so great, but those stellar moments (especially when viewed in light of the stellar moments of other performers of the same time) shine through as a thing of beauty

[P-Dub]

SoCalMan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is plausible that the AFL would not have made
> it without Namath.

The AFL had some great teams and players besides the Jets and Namath. SB3 changed the way people viewed the AFL, but the KC Chiefs the following year also had an impact on the merger.

> Also, there were some mighty
> skillful judges of football talent (far more
> skillful than anybody on this board) who swore
> that Namath was one of the all time great players

Namath had a quick release and could make throws that would make scouts drool. But to say he was one of the all time greats is a stretch.  If Lamonica doesn\'t airmail that screen pass to Charlie Smith, ruled a lateral that basically ended the game, the Jets lose despite Namath having a good game with 3 tds. Being great is about more than physical skills.

> Namath changed the game and also made a far wider
> audience want to watch it than ever had before.
> Imagine if we had a horse who was so amazing that
> hordes of new fans came to our sport just out of
> the possibility (but with no guarantee) to glimpse
> a flash of true greatness!

This is just opinion, which you are certainly entitled too. But its just that, an opinion. To say he changed the game, how?? There were many exciting players that people wanted to see, Namath was just one of many.
 
> If you want to equate Namath to a horse on a
> sheet....he is the type of horse who has thrown
> some unprecendented gem quality efforts but also
> has a lot of bounces and a lot of time off for
> injury (and poor efforts because he played through
> injuries).  On balance, the whole sheet may not
> look so great, but those stellar moments
> (especially when viewed in light of the stellar
> moments of other performers of the same time)
> shine through as a thing of beauty

Yes they do, but you can find many athletes that you can say the same thing about. Bo Jackson comes to mind.

JB/Magic,

Maynard,Sauer,Boozer,Snell.  Great players but those Raider teams had some great players too. And while I\'m sure those Jets lines were excellent ( I don\'t know as much about them as I do the Raiders, I\'ll take JB at his word), Shell/Upshaw/Otto/Buehler/Vella and later Shell/Upshaw/Dalby/Marvin/Lawrence were some of the best in history with 3 HOF players on them. Cliff Branch was my guy and one of the most underrated receivers of his era, Biletnikoff we all know about, Dave Caspar, Warren Wells, etc...  What a great era.

Lets just say that both of those teams had some outstanding talent.  Great comments regarding Snake too, another guy that should be in the HOF.

[miff]

When asked who was the best quarterback he had ever seen, Vince Lomabardi declined to say.He did say,however,that he had never seen any quarterback throw a football like Joe Namath.

Think that sums Namath up, huge cannon, maybe a bit overrated by the fickle NY press/fans.So Cal on the money, imo, as to the affect that Namath and Jets win over the colts had to do with AFL credibility and subsequent merger.


Mike

[miff]

Hi Paul,

Hope you are not forgetting Dwight White, Joe Greene, Ernie Holmes, LC Greenwood,Jack Lambert,Andy Russell,Jack Hamm, Mel Blount, Bradshaw,Swann, Stallworth, Franco(pisano) Harris and friends.Quess you will never forget the immaculate reception,hee hee! (won that lucky bet)

All generational things equal, not the greatest/talent team ever?? (understood that West Coast Joe Montana was the greatest quarterback ever)


Mike

[magicnight]

We were talking offensive lines, Mike. You could certainly put Swann/Stallworth into the greatest pair of wideouts talk.

[miff]

Magic,

Did not know it was O-Lines only.Didn\'t the Super Bowl KC Chiefs O-line handle the Vikings front four pretty easily?


Mike

[magicnight]

Mike,

They sure did chew up the \"Purple People Eaters\" (23-7 was the final, as I recall). And the merger came around after Supe IV, so, I\'d have to think KC also gets some credit for raising perceptions of AFL quality.

The AFL was a blast. The Raiders/Chiefs games were epics. One of the best players I ever saw (perhaps the poster child for all the underrateds) was KC\'s Otis Taylor. Whattaya say, Paul? Could Otis Taylor play, or what?

Also, for offensive lines, you would have to put Washington\'s \"Hogs\" right near the top of any list.

[HP]

Regarding Joe Namath - I think Charlie Brown said it best - \"Tell your statistics to shut up.\"  

Anybody who saw Joe Namath throw the ball can testify that he was an OUTSTANDING passer.  In my observation, the next/only guy that made me sit up and take notice as a pure passer on the level of Joe Namath was...Dan Marino.  In his time, nobody threw a football better than Joe Namath.  NOBODY!  Nobody playing today can match Joe Namath in terms of getting rid of the ball.  When you consider his surrounding cast, with the exception of a few years...plus his physical limitations...the stats definitely do not tell the whole story.  Also, Shea Stadium was a wind tunnel in the winter.  The quoted piece below says a lot, especially on the 4,000 yard thing.  It\'s just like baseball, with Babe Ruth/Joe Namath in the short season vs. Dan Fouts/Roger Maris in the longer, asterisk season.  

\"While his career statistics are not exceptional, Namath was the game\'s first true media superstar and Namath was the first NFL quarterback to throw for 4,000 yards during the 14 game 1967 season. This feat was not to be achieved again until Dan Fouts topped 4,000 yards during the 1979 season in a 16 game season. Namath threw for 4,000 yards under old rules that gave much less protection to both the quarterback and receivers. Namath\'s play on the field in the years before his knees seriously limited his mobility helped evolve the quarterback position and the NFL style of play from a run oriented ball control game to today\'s more open passing style. Perhaps the accolades of experts say it best. Hall of Fame coach Bill Walsh stated that Namath was \"the most beautiful, accurate, stylish passer with the quickest release I\'ve ever seen.\" Hall of Fame coach Don Shula stated that Namath was \"one of the 3 smartest quarterbacks of all time.\"\"

[TGJB]

Yes, Namath had a great arm and a quick release, and yes he had probably more impact on the NFL than anyone else, and yes he was a cool guy. (Also has the same birthday as me and Clint). But in terms of overall ability, I\'ll look at his sheet-- the rest is \"turn of foot\", \"beautiful way of going\" stuff. It goes into the number.

Can\'t believe Stabler is not in the HOF. That\'s unbelievable.

Allworth/Garrison have to be mentioned for top receiver tandems, too.

As for the Raiders-- best football fight I have ever seen, by far, was Raiders/Chiefs after Davidson speared Dawson out of bounds, probably the cheapest shot I have ever seen. Ah, those were the days.

[HP]

JB - 4,000 yards in a 14 game season would almost have to generate the best figure you could ever give a quarterback.  That was 1967.  Namath\'s sheet for 67-69 would probably be the best three year quarterback stretch ever.

[HP]

Also TGJB...took me awhile to think of this...that Jets offensive line, best in history?  That is completely nuts.  One All-Pro on that line.  Winston Hill.  Others were good (particularly Rasmussen) but not great.  

Plus Snell and Boozer were...good...but not great running backs (I don\'t think either one of them ever ran for 1,000 yards...best offensive line ever?  Come on!).  Namath threw a lot of INTs because teams were able to lay back against him since the backs really didn\'t make them pay.  And Weeb Ewbank was the father of the third-and-long draw play EVERY SINGLE TIME!  

I can only imagine what that Jets team would have accomplished if they had a Curtis Martin or John Riggins (who came a few years later).  As it was it was Joe\'s Air Show all the way, and even when they knew it was coming they couldn\'t stop it...

[P-Dub]

Miff,
Franco may be a pisano, but I still hate him. And you should be barred for a week for bringing up \"that play\". Agree with SB IV, the Chiefs ran misdirection and traps that had the Vikings befuddled.

Magic,
Otis Taylor was a beast. Size,strength,and speed. He shook off that Viking DB like he was a little boy.

HP,
Namath was beautiful to watch. The rules and elements definitely affected him. Its so tough to compare stats of that era with today. Also, those QBs called a lot of their own plays.  Today\'s QBs are like robots, and I really miss the days where a QB would dial up a play based on what HE saw/felt or what a teammate thought he could do (If Snake listened to Cliff Branch he would throw to him on every play, because Cliff thought he was open on every play).  But its tough to get past all those INTs. Just like Favre, who is overrated because this guy has tossed careless INTs for the past several years.

JB,
You\'re right on point about all of that. And the Davidson play still amazes me to this day. Dawson goes down, about 3 seconds later Big Ben drives the top of his helmet into Dawson\'s back and is then subsequently jumped on by Taylor and about 5 other Chiefs while getting practically NO Help from his teammates. WTF were the rest of the Raiders doing??

Great discussion guys. I was just old enough to remember those days, and I think those of us old enough to remember those days are extremely fortunate. ( No cable/satellite TV, Summerall/Brookshier weekly highlights show with that very cool NFL Films music, no overpaid self absorbed pricks complaining about money/play calling YouNameIt). If your favorite team is still playing,  Good Luck to you.