What Do Jerry Moss and Tom Osbourne Have In Common!

[Rich Curtis]

TGJB wrote:

 \"that race was won by Smith as much as Z-- if he didn\'t cut the corner she would not have won.\"

 Since we\'re taking Zenyatta off the rail, can we also have her break with the field instead of getting a TG \"off poorly\"?

[moosepalm]

Since we\'re dealing with football metaphors, I can think of a couple which frame this issue for me:

On the one hand, you have, \"In order to be the best, you have to beat the best.\"  So, yeah, I can see wherein lies some of the skepticism amongst the Zenyatta critics.

Conversely, you have, \"You can only beat the guys you\'re playing.\"  There\'s no sin in going 19-0.  Maybe John Shireffs doesn\'t really lose any sleep over the horse\'s position in the thoroughbred pantheon, but manages her to maintain her longevity and win a helluva lot of money.  If so, mission accomplished.

I have no dog in this fight, and can equivocate with the best of them, but I can truly see merit to both sides of this interminable discussion.

[TGJB]

We\'re not taking her off the rail. We\'re saying that the ride made the difference. Rides, actually-- the one on Twice Over had a little effect, too.

Tell you what I would like to see-- run her in the Arc. Given how she handles Pro-Ride, Z might be the best grass mare who ever lived. Like her chances better there than in the Classic.

[jbelfior]

Was that \"5\" when she set the track record in her debut at 5 1/2 in 1:03 flat by 15.

Or was it in the Spinaway when she ran a 1:08 3/5 by 13 as a 2yo filly?

Probably when she ran a 1:47 4/5 in the spring of her 3yo campaign winning off by 14.



Rich: She would have dusted Rachel, then come out the next day and dusted Zenyatta.

[Rich Curtis]

Jbelfior,

 Ruffian was before my time. My point with the Ruffian/Zenyatta/Rachel Rags figures concerns the fact of the figures given by Ragozin, not the accuracy. It was really a reply to Miff\'s post. I have no trouble with anybody thinking Ruffian would have dusted Rachel and Zenyatta. I think Spectacular Bid would have dusted any horse who has run since he ran.

Also: I think by far the most important thing I quoted is the following: \"even after we make our correction\"

[smalltimer]

She has not shown the same interest in workouts as when she was younger.  She is the type of mare that you have to be careful with, cause she won\'t do anything she doesn\'t want to.  She is a bully, she is full of herself, if she feels like working she does, if not..  Once you put her in a racing environment with the stands full of people she is ready to perform.  
She doesn\'t know anything but winning.  She just lopes out of the gate, waits for Mike to prompt her and she starts to make her run. The only time she doesn\'t act like she\'s calling the shots is when the gate opens and Mike\'s riding her. If you watch some of her replays and slow the frames down in the stretch, its obvious she just keeps finding another gear, and then another gear.  She is tenacious, and she\'ll be hard to beat in the Classic.  But at age 6, is she beatable?  Of course.
She is absolutely terrible at shipping, she is so high-strung she gets really dehydrated, she doesn\'t settle in like a lot of horses.  So that\'s a legitimate reason for not shipping more than a couple times in her career.  
Running in the Arc has never been mentioned. She likely would be a tremendous runner on turf and the farther they go the better.  But, those are world class and proven turf horses and that would be kind of a tough turf spot to debut, don\'t you think?
I still think she\'s the likely winner in the Classic simply because the distance in no issue for her, only the trip she gets.  Mike will ride her with the belief that the distance works to her advantage. When Z\'s camp shows up at Churchill, there\'s no question they\'re not coming to just run, they\'re coming to win.  
I do hope Rachel and QR run in the Classic.  It should make for a great matchup up front for the first 8-9 furlongs.

[gohorse]

I have a race they should try. It is run on 11/2 at Flemington The Emirates Melbourne Cup.I think she would get the 3200m distance with no problem. I would get Lee Freedman (Makybe Diva 3 wins in a row) To train her and Glen Boss to ride her.

I will give you my opinion on Z.Some horses like to win and want to win.She will do what it takes to get the job done what ever the competition is. I have bet against Her many times because she looks slow at times by the numbers. You can not take any thing away from a horse that does not lose.I believe she would win the Melbourne Cup If they gave her the chance.

[alm]

Sorry to be joining this conversation so late Silver Charm, but boy do I not agree with you.

A comparison can be drawn with Kelso, who won a bunch of big races multiple times.  I\'ve made this point before.

He was a 5-time HOY and really never beat any horse of the quality of Dr. Fager, Secretariat, Affirmed...and I could go on.  He ruled in a period during which competition at the top level was ordinary in ability.  He was kind of like Rocky Marciano...do you really think the undefeated champ could have handled Ali or Frazier, for example?  

NOT.

This filly is as great as Kelso, but not as great as the other champions above.  You can honor her accomplishments, but please, please don\'t compare her to them.

On the other hand, no one should say anything negative about Jerry Moss.  He\'s a finer person than most of us and his management of his stable is his business.  It\'s hard enough to be in this game, get a good horse every now and then and then have to defend yourself for wanting to put your horse in a spot to win.  That doesn\'t make him less of a sportsman...he\'s one of the best and no one here should question him until they measure what they would do if they were wearing his shoes.

[TGJB]

Alm-- well put.

Marciano/Frazier wouldn\'t have lasted long, but it would have been wild for a couple of minutes.

[Rich Curtis]

Alm wrote:

\"He was kind of like Rocky Marciano...do you really think the undefeated champ could have handled Ali or Frazier, for example?\"

  Yes. For one thing, close your eyes and try to picture even a 100YO Rocky Marciano losing to Leon Spinks. Marciano would have ripped Leon Spinks\'s arms off.

[Funny Cide]

smalltimer Wrote:
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> She is absolutely terrible at shipping, she is so
> high-strung she gets really dehydrated, she
> doesn\'t settle in like a lot of horses.  So that\'s
> a legitimate reason for not shipping more than a
> couple times in her career.

That\'s a really big exaggeration, based solely on her supposedly being dehydrated after the last time she shipped.  Obviously she wasn\'t \"so high-strung the gets really dehydrated, she doesn\'t settle in like a lot of horses\" that Shireffs decided to ship her a second time last year and a third time this year.  

Unless I\'ve missed it, Shireffs has never said a word about her being a poor shipper.  They weren\'t so worried about shipping her when they claimed to pencil in the Beldame and other races as possibilities, nor did they state she\'s too poor of a shipper when they decided to not to go in those races.  They\'ve also not said a word about worrying about shipping her for the BC.

The more famous the horse, the bigger the exaggerations.

[Silver Charm]

WOW, first college football and now pro boxing!

20 for 20 over 4 years and defeated Males Twice in the Worlds Biggest Older Horse Race.

And somehow Leon Spinx enters the conversation...huh? How many times did Kelso lose over that 5HOY run? Secretariat lost twice in his 3YO campaign.

We will see what she does in the Classic because that\'s going to be a very good field. If she wins it will probably be a historic event in racing history! Skeptics will certainly downgrade the merits of it instantly. Good thing about Zenyatta is this one athlete or coach who is telling the truth when they say \"I don\'t read the papers\"....

[moosepalm]

Silver Charm Wrote:
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> WOW, first college football and now pro boxing!


Heck, I\'ll add basketball to the mix.  One of the appealing aspects of college basketball is that you get a champion.  That seems to put all discussion to rest.  But, does it really?  Not if you want to conclusively answer the question, \"who was the best team in college basketball this year?\"  If a third seed gets a hot hand at season\'s end, and runs the table, does that mean they\'re the best, or does it simply mean they\'re the champs?  At day\'s end, does it really make any difference?  The third seed has the ring.  Period.  If they lose the battle on the sports talk show or the neighborhood bar, what of it?  Zenyatta\'s somewhere between 18-0 and 20-0, depending on whether you read Wikipedia or this board.  That\'s her ring, to date.  Is she better than Secretariat or Dr. Fager, or as the TVG wag, posited, \"the horse of the century?\"  Why go there?  It\'s inconclusive.  The \'72 Dolphins were undefeated.  Better than recent vintage Patriots?  You can do no more than put it to a vote, so why bother?

We get terribly invested in a team, player, horse, etc., which is fine.  I hang out on a college football team\'s board, and page after page of a single thread has been devoted to debating the merits of one former quarterback vs. another.  By the time everyone\'s given up the ghost, the ball has not been advanced one inch.  Of course, in such matters, the combatants do not have the benefit of Thorograph numbers.  On that note, I believe I will hand off the ball.

[smalltimer]

\"Dehydration\", Shirreffs said, \"No matter how well the ship goes, it takes her time to recover. She\'s a big mare and she can still get a little wound up when she travels.\"  All the other offspring of Z\'s mom have the same excitable tendencies.  She did nothing for a week when she returned from Oaklawn.
\"You don\'t like to see the veins stand out.\"
DRF 5/9/10 in an interview with John Shirreffs.

[smalltimer]

You say she \"supposedly\" was dehydrated.  You think she didn\'t return dehydrated and John Shirreffs said she was.  Since you\'re not listed as the trainer I\'ll believe John.