Frankel

[sighthound]

You don\'t need dirt, or the USA, to be known as the greatest ever.

[plasticman]

I think you do. Otherwise, you\'re just the greatest European turf horse ever.

[richiebee]

What if Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid or Rachel Alex went to
Europe and bombed on the turf? No longer great horses? Just great American Dirt
horses?

What if All Along, who won 4 Grade 1 grass stakes in four countries in 40 days, was
tried on dirt and was not brilliant? No longer a great mare, merely a great turf mare?

I do not agree. And here is a confession: I have never watched Frankel run, but
hearing some of the praise on this board, from people whose opinion I respect, I am
fairly certain he is a great horse, no mention of surface necessary.

Frankel has nothing to prove, and nobody seems to mention the possibility that he
would run in the BC Turf Classic (or Turf Mile).

Understand what your saying Plastic, but don\'t agree. Maybe we need to reconvene
the \"Greatness Committee\". Your argument also brings up the question of why there has
not been an all Turf Breeder\'s Cup run in Europe yet.

[plasticman]

Didnt Secretariat win on the turf in a foreign country?

I\'m not saying Frankel isnt a fine specimen, but to be considered an all time great horse, don\'t you have to come out of your comfort zone, even a little bit?

Everyone criticized Zenyatta and said she stayed in her comfort zone too much and now, Frankel does the same thing and its ok?

[sighthound]

Turf, not dirt, is the racing surface of the vast majority of the world.  Turf is the surface to \"take on all comers\".  Frankel has nothing to prove on a different surface.  

As far has his \"comfort zone\", that is a point to consider.   Frankel is a stunningly brilliant 7F-miler, who is going to stretch out to 1 1/4 now that he\'s four, against all older horses, carrying weight.  He\'s undefeated at two, at three, at four.  Seven Grade 1\'s, a Grade 2, a Grade 3.  Variety of venues, straight and curved tracks.

Here\'s his race record and videos.

http://www.horseracingnation.com/horse/Frankel

[sighthound]

Horse    Born    Rating
Frankel    2008    147
Sea Bird    1962    145
Brigadier Gerard 1968    144
Tudor Minstrel    1944    144
Abernant    1946    142
Ribot            1952    142
Mill Reef    1968    141
Dancing Brave    1983    140
Dubai Millennium 1996    140
Harbinger    2006    140
Sea The Stars    2006    140
Shergar    1978    140
Vaguely Noble    1965    140
Generous    1988    139
Pappa Fourway    1952    139
Reference Point 1984    139
Alleged    1974    138
Alycidon    1945    138
Celtic Swing    1992    138
Cigar            1990    138
Daylami    1994    138
Exbury            1959    138
Nijinsky    1967    138
Star of India    1953    138
Tulloch    1954    138
Easy Goer    1986    137
Sunday Silence    1986    137
Apalachee    1971    137
Dayjur            1987    137
Ghostzapper    2000    137
Grundy            1972    137
Kingston Town    1976    137
Mark of Esteem    1993    137
Molvedo    1958    137
Montjeu    1996    137
Moorestyle    1977    137
Never Say Die    1951    137
Peintre Celebre 1994    137
Pinza            1950    137
Princely Gift    1951    137
Ragusa            1960    137
Rheingold    1969    137
Reliance    1962    137
Right Boy    1954    137
Troy            1976    137
Zilzal            1986    137
Alcide            1955    136
Allez France    1970    136
Ballymoss    1954    136
Bering            1983    136
Black Tarquin    1945    136
Bustino    1971    136
Crepello    1954    136
El Condor Pasa    1995    136
El Gran Senor    1981    136
Floribunda    1958    136
Gentlemen    1992    136
Habibti    1980    136
Hafiz            1952    136
Hawk Wing    1999    136
Helissio    1993    136
Herbager    1956    136
My Babu    1945    136
Manikato    1975    136
Northjet    1977    136
Old Vic    1986    136
Relko            1960    136
Slip Anchor    1982    136
Suave Dancer    1988    136
Sakhee            1997    136
Tantieme    1947    136
Texana            1955    136
Thatch            1970    136
Warning    1985    136
All Along    1979    135
Arazi            1989    135
Arbar            1944    135
Arctic Prince    1948    135
Black Caviar    2006    136
Chanteur    1942    135
Charlottesville 1957    135
Coronation    1946    135
Dahlia            1970    135
Intikhab    1994    135
Known Fact    1977    135
Kris            1976    135
La Tendresse    1959    135
Le Moss    1975    135
Match II    1958    135
Nashwan    1986    135
Never So Bold    1980    135
Pebbles    1981    135
Petingo    1965    135
Petoski    1982    135
Right Royal    1958    135
Royal Anthem    1995    135
Sagace            1980    135
Sassafras    1967    135
Shadeed    1982    135
Shahrastani    1983    135
Shareef Dancer    1980    135
Sicambre    1948    135
Sir Ivor    1965    135
Souverain    1943    135
St Jovite    1989    135
Supreme Court    1948    135
Teenoso    1980    135
Tenerani    1944    135
The Bug    1943    135
The Minstrel    1974    135
Trempolino    1984    135
Youth            1973    135

[richiebee]

plasticman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didnt Secretariat win on the turf in a foreign
> country?

Canada. Secretariat had a two race turf career at the end of his 3YO campaign:
in those races he beat the best turf runners in North America. I think in the Man of
War he ran 1-1/2 miles in 2:24 flat, an American turf record which stood for a long
time.
>
> I\'m not saying Frankel isnt a fine specimen, but
> to be considered an all time great horse, don\'t
> you have to come out of your comfort zone, even a
> little bit?

As a 4YO, Spectacular Bid set track records at seven furlongs and ten furlongs,
carrying significant weight. Forego carried plenty of lead and was very effective at
distances from 7f to 10f. There was no outcry for either of these two all time greats
to run on turf, either in North America or \"over there\"
>
> Everyone criticized Zenyatta and said she stayed
> in her comfort zone too much and now, Frankel does
> the same thing and its ok?

I think alot of people who criticized Zenyatta should look more closely at her record
in Breeder\'s Cup races. Probably tough for her, unfortunately, to pass muster with
the Greatness Committee, some members of whom might be Shirreffs/Synthetic haters,
but this was an exceptional mare. She almost won two consecutive BC Classics, making
the claim that she \"ducked\" serious competition rather untenable.

[sekrah]

Getting up for 1 tough race a year is not my (or most peoples) definition of greatness.

As long as it satisfies the Zenyatta lovers, fine, don\'t worry about us.

[sekrah]

Talk about Voodoo figures..

[richiebee]

Sekrah:

Sorry,not biting. Have a great day!

Rich

[phil23]

Yep.  GZ 10pts back of all time best? 1 pt Slower! than Cigar.  Lmao.

[Rick B.]

Might be fun to see the TG top for these horses, if available.

(Since TGJB and crew have nothing to do but wait for arcane
requests to emerge from the Forum.)
 
How far back do TG numbers go, anyway?

[EJXD2]

And they American horses from the past 25 years on there, but not Secretariat or Spectacular Bid. Surely either of the World Records would rank among the ten all-time best performances.

[sekrah]

Not trying to get anyone to bite.   Just saying, getting up for 1 tough race a year does not impress me, nor should it impress anybody.   Any Giacomo can win the Ky Derby..  It\'s Triple Crown winners that are considered among the greatest of all time.

Greatness is beating the best in your sport, repeatedly.  When you only face the best in your sport once a year, it\'s simply not nearly as impressive.

[EJXD2]

I\'m unclear who this applies to?