Haskel

[Silver Charm]

Lol...sounds like these Violence commercials they are running now.

The horse is fast and has talent. BUT he never ran or did anything at 2. He whiffed in his one Triple Crown race and.skipped the rest. Great? How many Golfers who never won a Major are considered great?

He did win the Tampa Derby. Something Slew O\'Gold didnt. Hang in there Tread. None of this is personal and its a fun debate. BTW is Wise Dan great. Or is he not because he runs on Turf. IDK looks.like a Pitbull to me!!!

[Al Caught Up]

Thanks for bringing Smarty up in this context--that three-month streak was just phenomenal. Even in losing the Belmont, he ran an eye-popping number. I think he gets overlooked a lot when people talk about the greats of the last couple of decades, and he hasn\'t left much of a legacy in the shed, but he never ran a bad one, and he did it at distances and in the slop as well as on dry.

[catcapper]

Indeed. And, it will be very telling how Verazzano runs in the Travers. As easy a ride as he had in the Haskell, he should have no excuses for not showing up to run.  He has big raw talent and showed it Sunday, though he definitely still has much to prove. I think the Haskel is by far the most impressive race he has put forth yet. I say that mostly because of his time relative to the other times on the day and the way in which he ran. The Travers will be a competitive field. With Orb coming back freshened and Palace Malice hitting his stride, Verazzano will get his chance to show what he is or isn\'t. I\'m glad it\'s a mile and a quarter. A true test. I just hope the track is fast and fair so there can be no excuses.

No, Pletcher isn\'t known for campaigning sturdy horses who consistently achieve great things. They have their big hits here and there and go off to start heavily promoted stud careers. Maybe that is just the business model his owners employ. Who knows. But indeed, if Verazzano is going to do anything special, he has to do it now. He has to show consistency. First the Travers, then the BC. SA should be his kind of track. There can be no excuses. If I were to bet on the connections past performances, I would say he won\'t make it. But after the Haskell, I am willing to give the horse the benefit of the doubt. I give him credit for his win. Let\'s see if he can carry it further.

[P-Dub]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tread-- I\'ve kinda stayed out of this one, but
> since it gives me a chance to show Pdub I\'m really
> not biased against him, I\'m going to stick my toe
> in.
>
> As I\'ve discussed here a lot (it came up about
> Zenyatta) ability and accomplishment are two
> different things. But no matter which yardstick
> you use here, Verazzano does not qualify as a
> great horse, and will not unless he does a LOT
> more.
>
> I haven\'t done the day yet but I suspect Beyer got
> it about right, he ran about a neg 4 in the
> Haskell. And he now has won two GI\'s.
>
> But if you want to see great 3yos, you don\'t have
> to go back 30 years. Take a look at the sheets or
> pp\'s for Smarty or Rachel, and not far behind are
> Point Given and Bernardini.
>
> If Verrazano runs that fast again in his next
> three starts, and/or wins the Travers, Gold Cup
> and Classic, we can start talking about whether
> he\'s a great horse. Right now he\'s a horse that
> has run great once or twice.

JB,
I\'ve never thought that. We\'ve disagreed on things (the Zenyatta back and forth, and my ongoing Mike Smith support) but you are pretty fair with the admonishments.

I will say, funny how I don\'t get too much crap about Smith anymore around these parts.

[TreadHead]

Gonna have to disagree there, we can wait for the figures, but running something in the neighborhood of a -4 is every bit of an excuse to have a lackluster effort next out in 4 weeks time, no matter how easy it looked visually.  His performance in the Travers will not really be telling of anything, other than how solid and durable he is, which I think we are all already expecting is not going to be something he excels at.  Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised, who knows.

[makomaniac]

I would put a lot more credence in the Haskell performance if it was any trainer other than Pletcher. If Verranzo was trained by a regular \"hay and oats\" guy I would say it was a scintillating performance! I do remember what this guy did to that Elusive Quality colt that he got from Jerkens.His name escapes me, but he didn\'t even want to go in the gate for the Breeders Cup Classic and finished off the board. He had run two 100+ beyers in his first 4 starts. Pletcher got a 116 or 118 out of the horse in February of his 4yo season and that was his last brilliant effort. Mismanagement at its best!

[makomaniac]

Quality Road was on his way to stardom before Pletcher got him and he ran out of his skin at Gulfstream park to start his 4yo campaign.

[catcapper]

Hey Tread, Hey Mako,

Well, I don\'t disagree with you guys either. History is certainly on your side.

What motivates me to hope? is that the horse was so well within himself. But then JV has never really gone to the whip with him. He is a big striding big horse who just might be coming into himself this fall. I think his raw talent is immense. But the connections don\'t inspire one to believe he will fulfill it.

What I can\'t understand about Pletcher is that with the top quality of stock he gets, why can\'t he keep a good horse around longer?  I chalk it up to a very short sighted perspective and not a long term perspective - which is a big problem with the industry in general. And PED\'s are part of that. Drugs will never enhance the gene pool but they will degrade it and I for one would argue they already have.

Quality Road - great example. He had did have chronic foot issues with JJ and for whatever reason (short-sighted impatience?) the owners gave the horse to Pletcher. And in short order the horse was retired having one not much else. I was left hoping and wanting then, too. He was a really really fine horse who never came close to his full potential. At the time, I thought I, well, can\'t wait to see his babies run and I still look forward to that.

No, all things considered, history says Verazzano won\'t go on to do great things. And certainly won\'t run as a 4yo with these connections. If he doesn\'t make it the Travers, after such an easy win, that will speak volumes.

But I am at least hoping to see if he can fulfill his potential somewhat more against a tougher field at 1 1/4. I want to see a good competitive top level race, leaving less questions unanswered.

Can\'t wait!

[TreadHead]

I don\'t think a failure in the Haskell speaks volumes, it just makes him a normal horse.  I can\'t remember any horse running a neg 4 at a route and then repeating it within 4 weeks, other than maybe Ghostzapper.  And when he ran a neg4 at 3yrs old (albeit in a sprint) he was on the shelf for 9 months after that.

While we are on the subject of Ghostzapper and some of the other horses TGJB mentioned in his rebuttal, lets keep in mind that almost all of those mentioned were during the \"steroid era\", up to and including Big Brown.  This undoubtedly would have something to do with their increased comparative durability.

[catcapper]

No,  I mean if he is a non-entry for the Travers - that would speak volumes to me. For example, if he searches for an easier race then the connections feel he isn\'t up to the task of facing the other big boys in the big race. Still no knock on the horse. He may not want 1 1/4 as much as the connections want another easy win. and maybe they fear a big bounce in a big race.  But, if he runs in the Travers, win or lose, it will be a more competitive and exciting race, and more questions will have their answers. I would like to see that. I would hate to think that the connections spent his tank on the Haskell.

Would it be wrong to say that even if he bounces from a neg 4, he could still be competitive in the Travers?


And, your point about the \"steroid era\" is especially excellent and well taken.