What Thoro Figure Would 'Bid Have Gotten Here?

[cubfan0316]

oops sorry.little slow today

[miff]

\"Andrew Beyer apparently went back and retroactively assigned Secretariat
a 139 Beyer figure for his Belmont run\"


Bee,

As a fun thought, that Beyer would translate to a rough neg -12 TG fig.


Mike

[fkach]

I doubt it\'s a high quality figure no matter what the source.  I don\'t know, but I\'d be willing to bet it was the only two turn race of the day.  Also, since Secretariat and Sham duked it out pretty hard on the front end (destroying Sham), I\'d have to think Secretariat ran even better than whatever final time figure he was assigned. Even if you tried to make his figure off the horses destroyed behind him, there\'s no telling how much very inferior horses trying to keep up with the top two during the fast middle splits were impacted by the chase. Finally, those horse behind him were probably not a reliable guage no matter what because it was a 12F race and lots of horses just don\'t like 12F.

I look at that race and still get \"chills\". \"Chills\" rates higher to me than a fast number. ;-)

[alm]

I didn\'t miss seeing  Kelso...I grew up as one of his die hard fans and was present at most of the races he ran in NYC.

However....and this is a big however....despite all the thrills he gave me, Kelso never beat anybody as good as the horses on the lists of \'all time greatest\' that have been circulated here.

Go back and check it...you will be amazed at how unknown were the horses he beat, but also amazed at the horses who clocked him, over and over.  Gun Bow, Beau Purple?  Excuse me.

I remember winning a bet on a CV Whitney horse named Iron Peg who beat Kelso pretty handily at Aqueduct in some big race, based solely on looking for an upset.  I was always looking for an upset to beat him, so I could cash a reasonable bet.  He won most of the time, but lost to some ordinary horses MUCH of the time.

I don\'t think he would have warmed up Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, no matter how many Horse of the Year titles he won.

As for his Jockey Club Gold Cups, same thing.  Look at the horses who finished behind him and tell me if you are seeing Hall of Fame fields.  Or even if you recognize any of their names.

Sorry. I loved Kelso.  But this is the reality.

As for Easy Goer winning the Belmont with a hand ride...sorry, but Sunday Silence was probably due for a major bounce in this race and after him there was no one on the track worth talking about.  EG won in a hand ride because he could, not because he was that good.

He was above average, but he was not great.

[Uncle Buck]

>
> As for Easy Goer winning the Belmont with a hand
> ride...sorry, but Sunday Silence was probably due
> for a major bounce in this race and after him
> there was no one on the track worth talking about.
>  EG won in a hand ride because he could, not
> because he was that good.
>
> He was above average, but he was not great.

Easy Goer was whipped five times in the 1989 Belmont starting at the 5/16ths pole...Watch it again.

The easiest hand ride I\'ve personally ever seen was Fu-Peg\'s Derby in 2000. Effortless.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

With all due respect to your senoirity Alm, I\'d like to point out some facts that tend to support Kelso\'s greatness.

1st of Which is the Five year run of BOTH Jockey Club Gold Cups and Horse of the Year. We are not talking one lucky year when the crop is weak. We are talking a 5 year Run. I don\'t think that can be easily dismissed upon the notion that the horses he faced were not good enough to confer Greatness upon him.

I was alive in Kelso\'s era, just not old enough to bet or interested enough in the horses to pay attention. However, despite advancing age for the Computer Era, I\'m fairly adept with these machines. Computer literate as they say and competent to use them for any manner of research whatsoever.

The detail follows.

alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn\'t miss seeing  Kelso...I grew up as one of
> his die hard fans and was present at most of the
> races he ran in NYC.
>
> However....and this is a big however....despite
> all the thrills he gave me, Kelso never beat
> anybody as good as the horses on the lists of \'all
> time greatest\' that have been circulated here.


>
> Go back and check it...you will be amazed at how
> unknown were the horses he beat, but also amazed
> at the horses who clocked him, over and over.  Gun
> Bow, Beau Purple?  Excuse me.



Beau Purple set three track records beating Kelso. He didn\'t have the longevity of Kelso. But The Giant Killer certainly had him ready to roll at times. (Allen Jerkens for the youthful.)

http://www.pedigreequery.com/beau+purple

You have to click on the above link and then click on the \"i\" symbol at said link to get the synopsis to appear.

Jerkins also beat Secretariat twice. If Secretariat continued to run against Allen Jerkins how many races would he have lost and do you think these defeats diminish Secretariat\'s standing?


> I remember winning a bet on a CV Whitney horse
> named Iron Peg who beat Kelso pretty handily at
> Aqueduct in some big race, based solely on looking
> for an upset.  I was always looking for an upset
> to beat him, so I could cash a reasonable bet.  He
> won most of the time, but lost to some ordinary
> horses MUCH of the time.



Kelso ran 63 races. He won 39 and placed (usually very closely), 12 races. That is first or second in 51 of 63 races. Championships are made of those types of numbers. By any standard Kelso won Most of the time and was a major factor the great majority of the time. George W. Bush can only wish he had such numbers.

On another note. Gun Bow\'s 4YO year was probably worthy of Championship Honors. Kelso may have caught a break with the Voters, but I\'m not sure how the head to heads panned out.

Sunday Silence had the same Winning Percentage in 14 races, (9 wins) How much harder could they run that one with such an abbreviated career? And as hard as he ran how many Track Records did he set?

> I don\'t think he would have warmed up Secretariat
> or Spectacular Bid, no matter how many Horse of
> the Year titles he won.



Really? even if those two had to take him on in the 2 mile Jockey Gold Cup?
>
> As for his Jockey Club Gold Cups, same thing.
> Look at the horses who finished behind him and
> tell me if you are seeing Hall of Fame fields.  Or
> even if you recognize any of their names.
>
> Sorry. I loved Kelso.  But this is the reality.
>
> As for Easy Goer winning the Belmont with a hand
> ride...sorry, but Sunday Silence was probably due
> for a major bounce in this race and after him
> there was no one on the track worth talking about.
>  EG won in a hand ride because he could, not
> because he was that good.



Regarding the above contention, Sunday Silence and Easy Goer had the same number of preps, with Easy Goers 3YO preps more closely grouped. Why was Sunday Silence due for the Bounce and not Easy Goer?
>
> He was above average, but he was not great.



I think they were both Great. Easy Goer was just closer to Kelso great is all.

[alm]

Sorry, but I disagree completely.

Take a look at that list of the 100 greatest horses of the last century.  I think Blood Horse compiled it (could be wrong about the source.)  Look at the placing of Kelso and then try to find any horses on the list that he beat.  You will be amazed at how few there are.  Then take a look at the horses who raced against one another in the years before and after his career and which achieved stardom.

You can conclude whatever you want, but the truth is there ARE eras in which crop after crop produce average horses.  You want to focus on the Derby to make this point?  It\'s even easier: superstars (sarcasm intended) such as Dust Commander, Cannonade, Spend A Buck, etc.

I\'m saying this as a fan who loved Kelso.  I also fell in love with Shuvee, the filly who won the Jockey Club Gold Cup two years running.  She also beat NOBODY in those races.  I mean in one year she beat the favorite named Loud.  Does that one rock your boat?

As a season-end race, it often featured horses who were survivors more than anything else, so a good runner like these two had their pickins.  HOY honors in those days were heavily influenced by the Gold Cup\'s outcome, but it was too heavily weighted IMHO.

One thing you mention, new track records...how can anyone on this board place track records high on the criteria of metrics to establish a horse\'s ability?

Sorry, but I see it this way...if Kelso raced against Dr. Fager, Buckpasser and Damascus, when they were knocking heads, he would have placed fourth.

[P-Dub]

Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think they were both Great. Easy Goer was just
> closer to Kelso great is all.


Hello.
Is there anybody in there?
Just nod if you agree with me.
That Easy Goer is better than Sunday Silence?

Come on, now.
I know it is ridicu...lous
Easy Goer better than Sunday Silence??
I\'ll just blame it on drugs I took in the 60\'s.

Relax.
I need some information first.
Just the basic facts:
Easy Goer lost 3 out of 4 to Sunday Silence.

This makes no sense, I am receding.
A lonely soul, I am delusional.
Easy Goer in hand winning the Belmont by 7.
Who cares about the bias, no lasix, or NYRA helping him out??

When I was a child I had a fever.
This explains why I can\'t help myself.
To drone on about Easy Goer despite the facts
I cant explain, you would not understand.
This is how I am.
I have become Comfortably Dumb.

Ok.
Just a little nonsense.
Therell be no more --aaaaaahhhhh!
But I still believe Easy Goer\'s the greatest.

Can I stand up?
I do believe its working. good.
I\'m more loaded than a yearling at a sale
Why else would I sound so ridiculous?

There is no pain, I am receding.
A distant soul in search of some sense.
You are only coming through in waves.
You say Sunday Silence is bettter but I cant hear what youre sayin.
When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse,
Of Easy Goer winning the Classic
I turned to look but it was gone.
I was asleep, it wasn\'t real
The child is grown, the dream is gone.
I have become Comfortably Dumb.

[alm]

Sometimes you are better off reducing questions to a moment in time, like the moment when Sunday Silence got shuffled back in the Preakness and Pat Day on Easy Goer had open lengths and a clear shot to win the race going into the final turn.

PVal was forced to almost check SS and go wide through the turn.  Three wide I think.

Despite this setback, SS caught up to Easy Goer in a flash...a flash.  He then battled him down the stretch on even terms and beat him at the wire.

Going 10 furlongs SS was best...slightly, but best.  He had a better turn of foot, he was more agile, he was dead game.  The lemon was squeezed too hard for him to bounce back in the Belmont and Easy Goer was a deserving winner of that.

Even though most of his stud career was in Japan, SS also beat Easy Goer in the breeding shed.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, but I disagree completely.

Thats your prerogative.

> Take a look at that list of the 100 greatest
> horses of the last century.  I think Blood Horse
> compiled it (could be wrong about the source.)
> Look at the placing of Kelso and then try to find
> any horses on the list that he beat.  You will be
> amazed at how few there are.

From my quick research the other day the horses that challenged Kelso were Great in one year. Which can be determined by number of big wins and track records. Both Gun Bow and Beau Purple were monsters in a respective season. They just couldn\'t sustain it over multiple years against Kelso and they couldn\'t beat him at the greatest test of ability. In summary, Kelso wore them out and kept going.

Additionally, Kelso raced to be ready for a race and if you occasionally beat him congrats, but I\'m suspecting you beat him where he was getting ready for the payday race.

The accounts and records I read were clear that he was among the Greatest Ever. FYI Eddie Arcaro said that Kelso was the Best horse he ever rode and if you check the history you\'ll find Eddie ran on some very very good ones.

> Then take a look at
> the horses who raced against one another in the
> years before and after his career and which
> achieved stardom.

Not sure how that is relevant to horses that did not or chose not to face Kelso. (Northern Dancer for instance.)  When good horses get beat by great horses their accomplishments may not come up to what they would have otherwise. Sunday Silence comes to mind. His Belmont drubbing pretty much reduced him to a good horse but not an exceptional one.
>
> You can conclude whatever you want, but the truth
> is there ARE eras in which crop after crop produce
> average horses.  You want to focus on the Derby to
> make this point?  It\'s even easier: superstars
> (sarcasm intended) such as Dust Commander,
> Cannonade, Spend A Buck, etc.

I addressed this point already, but if you don\'t think Spend a Buck was a freaky horse what can I say.
>
> I\'m saying this as a fan who loved Kelso.  I also
> fell in love with Shuvee, the filly who won the
> Jockey Club Gold Cup two years running.  She also
> beat NOBODY in those races.  I mean in one year
> she beat the favorite named Loud.  Does that one
> rock your boat?

She also won the Triple Tiara when it meant something. The fact that she won 2 JCGC\'s when it was the biggest race in the era of real Handicaps counts very big. Was she the greatest mare ever? Quite possibly.
 
> As a season-end race, it often featured horses who
> were survivors more than anything else, so a good
> runner like these two had their pickins.  HOY
> honors in those days were heavily influenced by
> the Gold Cup\'s outcome, but it was too heavily
> weighted IMHO.
>
> One thing you mention, new track records...how can
> anyone on this board place track records high on
> the criteria of metrics to establish a horse\'s
> ability?

Those track records are a bit of a hurdle to overcome aren\'t they? and I can see you\'re struggling with them. Kinda like Bush saying \"We are fighting them there so we don\'t have to fight them here.\" Even though \"They\" weren\'t there when Bush decided to \"fight\" them there. And by the way Kelso ran those records too, including setting one in his final Gold Cup.

Not just one track record...multiple track records by each of two of Kelso\'s challengers which you dismissed in their respective great seasons.  Don\'t get me wrong. I\'m not saying a track record Automatically confers greatness. I\'m saying the totality of circumstances has to be weighed. For example Bellamy Road\'s record tying Wood a couple years back. I never believed tying the track record that day on that track conferred any kind of super ability upon him as his two subsequent races tend to have borne out. However, I was on record Before those races occurred.
 
> Sorry, but I see it this way...if Kelso raced
> against Dr. Fager, Buckpasser and Damascus, when
> they were knocking heads, he would have placed
> fourth.

Maybe, but he would have beaten them up and taken their lunch money in the Gold Cup.

9 - KELSO

-  Champion Three-Year-Old Colt and Horse Of The Year in 1960
-  Champion Handicap Horse and Horse Of The Year in 1961, 1962, 1963 and 1964
-  Won Jockey Club Gold Cup S. (3&up at 2 miles) at Aqueduct in 1960 and 1961, at Belmont Park in 1962, and at Aqueduct in 1963 and 1964
-  Equaled the track record of 2:00 for 1 1/4 miles in the 1961 Woodward S. at Belmont Park
-  Won the Woodward S. (3&up at 1 1/4 miles) at Aqueduct in 1962 and 1963
-  Won Whitney S. (3&up at 1 1/8 miles) at Saratoga in 1961, 1963 and 1965
- Won Suburban H. (3&up at 1 1/4 miles) at Aqueduct in 1961 and 1963
-  Won Brooklyn H. (3&up at 1 1/4 miles) at Aqueduct in 1961
-  Won Metropolitan H. (3&up at 1 mile) at Aqueduct in 1961
-  Set a new American record of 3:19 1/5 for 2 miles in the 1964 Jockey Club Gold Cup S. at Aqueduct, breaking his record of 3:19 2/5, set four years earlier in the same race
-  Equaled the American record of 1:46 3/5 for 1 1/8 miles on turf at Saratoga in 1964
-  Set or equaled four other track records at distances from 1 1/8 miles to 2 miles

1963 Race Record:    12-9-2-0, $569,762
Lifetime Record:    63-39-12-2, $1,977,896

[P-Dub]

The Clown writes:
\"When good horses get beat by great horses their accomplishments may not come up to what they would have otherwise. Sunday Silence comes to mind. His Belmont drubbing pretty much reduced him to a good horse but not an exceptional one.

Easy Blowhard
Sire: Easy Goer
Dam: Chuckles The Clown 2 (Bozo)

CTC2,

If you can answer one question with any semblance of reason, I will never mention these 2 horses again. What on earth makes you believe Easy Goer was great, while the horse that whipped him 3 out of 4 is merely good?? That farce of a Belmont??

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Whittingham\'s daughter at a restaurant a few years back. I asked her a lot of questions about various horses and specifically about Sunday Silence. While her father gave Easy Goer credit for winning the Belmont, he also said Sunday Silence...all things being equal (and we all know what that means)...would beat Easy Goer 7 days a week. I\'ll take his word over that of a clown.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Hello.
Is there anybody in there?
Nod, Dub and Alm if you can hear me.
Is there anybody home?

Come on, now.
I know youre feeling down.
Well I can ease your pain,
Put you on your bets again.

Relax.
I need some information first.
Just the basic facts:
If you will show us where it hurts.

There is no pain, you\'re just receding.
As distant horses O\'er the horizon.
You both are ebbing away in waves.
Your posts appear but on one knows what you\'re saying.
As children did you both have fevers?
Were your heads merged just like balloons?
Its clear you\'ve that feeling once again.
I could explain but you would not understand.
The way a Halo or Kelso ran.
You have become mistakenly one.

Ok.
Just a little pinprick. [ping]
Therell be no more --confusion
But you were both very sick.

Can you stand up?
I do believe its working. good.
Thatll keep you going for the show.
Come on the Belmonts here its time to go.


alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sometimes you are better off reducing questions to
> a moment in time, like the moment when Sunday
> Silence got shuffled back in the Preakness and Pat
> Day on Easy Goer had open lengths and a clear shot
> to win the race going into the final turn.
>
> PVal was forced to almost check SS and go wide
> through the turn.  Three wide I think.
>
> Despite this setback, SS caught up to Easy Goer in
> a flash...a flash.  He then battled him down the
> stretch on even terms and beat him at the wire.
>
> Going 10 furlongs SS was best...slightly, but
> best.  He had a better turn of foot, he was more
> agile, he was dead game.  The lemon was squeezed
> too hard for him to bounce back in the Belmont and
> Easy Goer was a deserving winner of that.
>
> Even though most of his stud career was in Japan,
> SS also beat Easy Goer in the breeding shed.

[alm]

You missed the point, but so what.

As for Shuvee possibly being the greatest mare ever...I wish I could agree with you, because I got into the breeding business by buying one of her granddaughters (who turned out to be a dud.)

Nevertheless, if she was the greatest mare ever, why couldn\'t she beat Gallant Bloom?

She was the greatest mare to win the Jockey Club Gold Cup, which as I said, was the season ending race for survivors.  Context is everything.