What Thoro Figure Would 'Bid Have Gotten Here?

[Uncle Buck]

Since there\'s a little lull in the Classics, here\'s a neat video I found on Youtube of the 1980 Strub Stakes with Spectacular Bid and Willie Shoe running the 1 1/4 in 1:57...I\'m guessing if TGJB were to assign a figure to this performance - it would be in the neighborhood of a -8...Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDbOyu5tTF4

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

The Bid was before my betting time, so I don\'t remember him and can\'t really appreciate his races. That Strub win looked effortless. Amazing Stride on that horse. He looked like a Greyhound.

Couldn\'t help but notice how they floated over that track. Very little dirt splash. Flying Paster must have run about a 1.58.4, Valdez maybe 1.59.2
and after setting a 44.2 half it looks like Relaunch may have run about a 2.00
Bid\'s mile fraction was 1.32.4

Obviously that track was smoking.

Easy Goer ran a faster mile on a more fair surface so I\'m quite sure Easy Goer would have won that race. Probably in 1.56.4

I did note all the references to TGraph in the discussion. Unfortunately the different era comparisons can\'t really be resolved. All that we can do is bet upon and appreciate the great ones in their eras. The Bid is gone now and so is Buddy Delp and The Shoe. I think they would have faired very well in this years Classics. Maybe, just maybe Bid would not have picked a nail up had 2007 been his year. However, they are part of the fabric of this sport and we had a once in a lifetime opportunity to enjoy them.

I was at Gulfstream during Shoemaker\'s Farewell Ride Tour. He was running in a Sprint Stakes aboard a Canadian bred by Bold Ruckus is my recollection. The horse went off at 9-2. I made a nice wager on the race and it turned out to be Shoes last Stakeswinner and perhaps his last winner. U[pm the latter contention, I\'m not certain now. I cashed that wager, but I wish I\'d held onto that ticket. It was just an ordinary Am Tote ticket with the Lavender highlights of the track colors, but it would have been worth more to me now than the return it provided then. It might even of had value beyond the dollars it could be used to claim.

CtC

 
Uncle Buck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since there\'s a little lull in the Classics,
> here\'s a neat video I found on Youtube of the 1980
> Strub Stakes with Spectacular Bid and Willie Shoe
> running the 1 1/4 in 1:57...I\'m guessing if TGJB
> were to assign a figure to this performance - it
> would be in the neighborhood of a -8...Enjoy!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDbOyu5tTF4

[fkach]

>Easy Goer ran a faster mile on a more fair surface so I\'m quite sure Easy Goer would have won that race. Probably in 1.56.4 <

ROTFLMAO!

[Uncle Buck]

This debate is why I question the the TG methodology somewhat. Mineshaft, I believe, used to be the fastest thoro-figure horse ever. You\'re going to tell me that Mineshaft ran better figures than Cigar?

[miff]

Wider Buck, Wider, not faster.Certain running styles produce faster performance figs not faster horses.


Mike

[P-Dub]

Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
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> Easy Goer ran a faster mile on a more fair surface
> so I\'m quite sure Easy Goer would have won that
> race. Probably in 1.56.4

Then I\'m quite sure Sunday Silence would have run a 1.56.0 and your boy would have finished second.

Chuck.....can you please stop referring to the second best colt from 1989???

[fkach]

Jerry has already addressed this issue to death and presented a lot of evidence in his articles posted elsewhere on the site. Personally, I don\'t think we have all the information required to make some of these intergenerational comparisons with 100% certainty. Plus, we all also know that there is a subjective element to making figures that could lead them astray over time.

All that said, I personally believe the 4YO Bid was one of the best 3 horses I ever saw (I started handicapping in the mid/late 70s). Neither of the other two was named Easy Goer. In fact, when I look at Easy Goer\'s record, I see a sensational horse that ran very fast on occasion. But he pretty much failed in every race in which he was entered against another really top class horse in a very important event (other than the Belmont which was 12F, his home track, and biased to favor his style). As good as I think he was, I think he is overrated by his diehard fans. I think that\'s why he tends to generate so much passionate discussion.

[alm]

Easy Goer was a top notch horse on dry tracks.  

The question is, what do we all agree makes a great horse?  Whatever criteria we may agree or disagree upon, it\'s likely that we will all agree that a great horse must perform at his or her best on all types of tracks.

If you want to see a great horse in action, watch Secretariat\'s Triple Crown races. You cannot mention Easy Goer in the same breath.  NFW.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

I would just point out that Secretariat was a pretty good target when he stepped up to face his elders.

Chuckles the Clown\'s the Greatest of all Times,

1. Easy Goer
2. Smarty Jones
3. Seattle Slew
4. Spectacular Bid
5. Affirmed

alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Easy Goer was a top notch horse on dry tracks.  
>
> The question is, what do we all agree makes a
> great horse?  Whatever criteria we may agree or
> disagree upon, it\'s likely that we will all agree
> that a great horse must perform at his or her best
> on all types of tracks.
>
> If you want to see a great horse in action, watch
> Secretariat\'s Triple Crown races. You cannot
> mention Easy Goer in the same breath.  NFW.

[P-Dub]

> Chuckles the Clown\'s the Greatest of all Times,
>
> 1. Easy Goer
> 2. Smarty Jones
> 3. Seattle Slew
> 4. Spectacular Bid
> 5. Affirmed

Greatest teams of all times:
1- 1990\'s Buffalo Bills
2- 1990\'s - present Atlanta Braves
3- 1988 Oakland A\'s
4- 1985 Georgetown Hoyas
5- 1983 Univ Houston basketball

Chuck,
Maybe your next song parody should be \"Delirious\".

[cubfan0316]

i cant agree on the bills, if you are great you need to win the big one.

[P-Dub]

cubfan0316 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i cant agree on the bills, if you are great you
> need to win the big one.


Cub,
I was being sarcastic......all of those teams came up short.

[richiebee]

Only going back with horses I have seen, at any distance between 7/8ths and 10
furlongs-- 1) Secretariat, 2) Seattle Slew, 3) Spectacular Bid, 4) Forego,
5) Affirmed and 6) Alydar. Secretariat gets top spot because towards the end of
his career he was giving signs that he could have also become one of the top
grass runners of any generation. 3 Triple Crown winners and 2 near misses.
Agreed not too much controversy involved in those selections. I think Spec Bid
(IMO best turn of foot) and Forego (incredible will to win) may have had an
advantage at the shorter distances (ie 7/8s and one turn mile).

Smarty Jones to me was a one paced horse with great gate speed who was never
seriously challenged on the front during his victories.

Sorry Fager fans, I am too \"young\".

One I missed-- one of my personal favorite moments in racing was seeing Kelso\'s
5 consecutive Jockey Club Gold Cup trophies all in one case at the Nat Racing
Hall of Fame. Greatness, etched in gold.

Another I missed -- Olden Times--winner of the San Juan Capistrano on turf in
1962, his course record at 1-3/4s on grass stood, I believe, into the 1980s, as
did his track record at Churchill Downs at 7/8s on the main track. Speed,
versatility and one of Racing\'s most successful broodmare sires in the last
portion of the 20th Century.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

I think I get the pun.

I just factor winning at 12 poles in hand rides very large. The Belmont is my favorite race. Last year obviously the Derby winner missed it. So did the Preakness Winner and Preakness runner up. It just wasnt worth a bet.

This year we have a good race. Including a couple shooters that should make it interesting.

I have great appreciation for Kelso. That run of Gold Cups and HOTYs is probably the safest achievement in sports. He would have hammered Sunday Silence in those Gold Cups. (There were 2 miles...lol) Easy Goer would have made Kelso run thats for sure.

Olden Times achievements noted. Secretariat lost 2 of 3 on Dirt when he moved up to face olders.

http://www.secretariat.com/past_performance.htm

Granted he might have had an X-0 pattern going. They\'ve never come close to his Belmont 2.24.......The closest is Easy Goer went in 2.26 and matched by A.P. Indy, Maybe Point Given.  I\'d like to see a Chart of Secretariats Belmont Day Card. It must have been wicked fast.

Easy Goer ran the second fastest mile ever by a click. The fastest going to pretty darn good miler. Easy Goer also threw the fastest fractional times of all his contemporaries. He just threw them 2nd, 3rd or 4th fraction is all. His Breeders Cup Classic Split Run is still the most electrifying and physics defying move by a horse I\'ve ever seen. I think they could have taken him back and set him down for another run to catch Kelso at 2 miles.

Dancing Spree won Grade I\'s at six and 10 poles too. Did Fager do that?

Get rid of the Poly and bring the 2 mile Jockey Gold Cup Back.

Pletcher still struggling. Why are these stables giving them their horses? Poor Lawyer Ron.

P-Dub Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Chuckles the Clown\'s the Greatest of all Times,
> >
> > 1. Easy Goer
> > 2. Smarty Jones
> > 3. Seattle Slew
> > 4. Spectacular Bid
> > 5. Affirmed
>
> Greatest teams of all times:
> 1- 1990\'s Buffalo Bills
> 2- 1990\'s - present Atlanta Braves
> 3- 1988 Oakland A\'s
> 4- 1985 Georgetown Hoyas
> 5- 1983 Univ Houston basketball
>
> Chuck,
> Maybe your next song parody should be \"Delirious\".

[richiebee]

Churkoman:

       Andrew Beyer apparently went back and retroactively assigned Secretariat
a 139 Beyer figure for his Belmont run.

       I appreciate your appreciation of the Belmont, but cant see how you
think this year\'s edition will be a good betting race. Right now it looks like
Tafel will prevail over Nafzger (if it were totally up to Nafzger, he already
would have pulled the shoes off of SS and turned him out) and SS will run at
Belmont. Given the short field and the fact that experts will tell us that
Curlin \"absolutely positively\" has to bounce at Belmont, I think that Tafel
might be right.

       What might be interesting is that Curlin and SS will be relatively
forwardly placed, and to see how these 2 react to this scenario.

       So you will have the top 3 from the first 2 legs, plus Tiago (not
flattered by KOTR\'s Preakness effort), \"Wild and Crazy\" and Slews Tizzy (well
beaten by Circular Quay at Fair Grounds). I guess the wise guys will be looking
at the 3 fresh Preakness absentees to advance and the top 3 (SS, Curlin, HS) to
bounce; simple game.

       Look for NYRA to unfortunately have to \"hustle\" a couple of runners into
the Belmont (can you say Teuflesberg?)to fill trifecta wagers and to be able to
conduct Superfecta wagering.