Roca Rojo

[Mc990]

Where is the evidence? I think you\'re posing that question in the wrong forum...

She was the fastest horse in the race and had 3 other efforts that made her tough on Saturday (2 of which came on firm turf).

Anyone who doesn\'t think that ride compromised her chances isn\'t paying attention.

Owners are no dummies obviously. They know what they have (or don\'t have)

[SoCalMan2]

bellsbendboy Wrote:
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> Cannot fathom LADY ELI having lost a nickle of
> sales price had she been beaten.  
>
> Would also add the conspiracy theorist\'s are out
> to lunch with their prattle.
>
> As for the race, no question the talented boy,
> first time racing the Grade II winner had heavy
> hands early after the unfortunate break, \"Roca\" is
> a nice mare, who is much better on giving ground,
> which wasn\'t available. Yet where is the pre-race
> evidence she was ever going to threaten a five
> time grade one winner?
>
> bbb

Is this comment serious or a joke?  If it is a joke, apologies for responding incorrectly.

Citing that 60% of the horses in a race are coming from the same barn as evidence that the barn\'s instructions could differ than if the horses were from separate barns is out to lunch and prattle?

Losing the G1 Matriarch by a nose to Miss Temple City on firm turf at equal weights (2 months after MTC beat the boys in the G1 Shadwell) is not evidence of any G1 quality?

If you answer yes to either, how exactly is it possible to have any discussion with you?

[jimbo66]

Lot of posts from people, some claiming to have even bet on Roca Rojo.  Mostly not mentioning the most important fact in the race.  

Not sure what race people were watching but there was no UNFORTUNATE start.  The horse broke fine.  Rosario, hack that he often is, pulled hard on the horse two strides out of the gate, yanking the horse well off the pace.  That seemingly awkward stride about 4 strides out of the gate, was not a bad step or a bobble, it was purely jockey error.  He pulled on the horse very hard.  

After all, when you have a horse with a modicum of early positional speed and you have a 5 horse field with absolutely no speed in it, what else would you do with a horse that breaks alert but pull his head off, yanking him 10-12 lengths off a slow pace.

The replay is all over youtube/bloodhorse, etc.  Watch it.  Just a purely ridiculous move by Rosario.

[P-Dub]

jimbo66 Wrote:
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> Lot of posts from people, some claiming to have
> even bet on Roca Rojo.  Mostly not mentioning the
> most important fact in the race.  
>
> Not sure what race people were watching but there
> was no UNFORTUNATE start.  The horse broke fine.
> Rosario, hack that he often is, pulled hard on the
> horse two strides out of the gate, yanking the
> horse well off the pace.  That seemingly awkward
> stride about 4 strides out of the gate, was not a
> bad step or a bobble, it was purely jockey error.
> He pulled on the horse very hard.  
>
> After all, when you have a horse with a modicum of
> early positional speed and you have a 5 horse
> field with absolutely no speed in it, what else
> would you do with a horse that breaks alert but
> pull his head off, yanking him 10-12 lengths off a
> slow pace.
>
> The replay is all over youtube/bloodhorse, etc.
> Watch it.  Just a purely ridiculous move by
> Rosario.

Jimbo,

You are absolutely correct.

Is it possible he did this because that is what he was told to do??

[SoCalMan2]

jimbo66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot of posts from people, some claiming to have
> even bet on Roca Rojo.  Mostly not mentioning the
> most important fact in the race.  
>
> Not sure what race people were watching but there
> was no UNFORTUNATE start.  The horse broke fine.
> Rosario, hack that he often is, pulled hard on the
> horse two strides out of the gate, yanking the
> horse well off the pace.  That seemingly awkward
> stride about 4 strides out of the gate, was not a
> bad step or a bobble, it was purely jockey error.
> He pulled on the horse very hard.  
>
> After all, when you have a horse with a modicum of
> early positional speed and you have a 5 horse
> field with absolutely no speed in it, what else
> would you do with a horse that breaks alert but
> pull his head off, yanking him 10-12 lengths off a
> slow pace.
>
> The replay is all over youtube/bloodhorse, etc.
> Watch it.  Just a purely ridiculous move by
> Rosario.

I think there is uniformity of thinking that the ride was bad.  Haven\'t seen anybody defend it.  I think the debates here are about the cause not the effect -- i.e. was it (a) bad choices by Rosario or (b) bad instructions from Brown to Rosario.  I do agree with you that the start was fine and the jockey decided the check the horse for no apparent reason after the fine break....but even the commenter on here who is ludicrous and called the break unfortunate criticized Rosario\'s heavy hands in the race.

That lonely voice does not defend Rosario\'s ride, but rather insanely argues (i) anybody who thinks it could have possibly been Trainer\'s instructions is an out to lunch conspiracy theorist and (ii) Roca Rojo did not appear good enough before the race to think she was going to win even with a par ride, so, if you bet her, consider yourself undeservedly lucky that the ride mattered (Please note -- I do not think this, just reporting somebody else\'s replusive argument that is on here).

That dissenter is fairly difficult to understand, but as I read the comment, he/she seems to be suggesting that even if the ride was bad, the bettors on Roca Rojo do not deserve any sympathy because they were unreasonable to think she would be good enough to matter anyway.  If I have correctly interpreted the comment, it seems like an odd way to join a discussion about a bad jockey ride.

[jimbo66]

P-Dub,

I think it certainly is possible.  But even if asked to take a horse off the pace, the MANNER in which Rosario did was incredulous to me.  He literally pulled him so hard that it looked like the horse bobbled or took a bad step.  jockeys ease horses off the pace as per instructions seemingly pretty regularly.  

What Rosario did was a butcher job.

Who knows, not saying he could have won or anything like that.  Just strange.  This horse ran his top sitting second, right off a legit speed horse in the CD race.  Why it would be brilliant to be 10 off, instructions or not, is well beyond me.

Jim

[SoCalMan2]

jimbo66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P-Dub,
>
> I think it certainly is possible.  But even if
> asked to take a horse off the pace, the MANNER in
> which Rosario did was incredulous to me.  He
> literally pulled him so hard that it looked like
> the horse bobbled or took a bad step.  jockeys
> ease horses off the pace as per instructions
> seemingly pretty regularly.  
>
> What Rosario did was a butcher job.
>
> Who knows, not saying he could have won or
> anything like that.  Just strange.  This horse ran
> his top sitting second, right off a legit speed
> horse in the CD race.  Why it would be brilliant
> to be 10 off, instructions or not, is well beyond
> me.
>
> Jim

Most likely answer -- it was both, bad instructions, and bad execution of bad instructions.  Unfortunately, in this case, the double negative did not make a positive.  It is interesting that a jockey can be given bad instructions and botch them...and there can be two different results of that ....a good ride or a really terrible ride. In this case, we got the latter

[Bet Twice]

BBB - it\'s clear your view on racing is different than those that visit the board.  When you post here you typically get a hostile reaction, and rightfully so.  You post your insights after the fact, you site rationale that you know carries no weight here, etc.  what is the motivation?  Do you have nothing better to do with your time?

[bellsbendboy]

Bet

Certainly my views on handicapping are different, especially on grass. Labeling the reactions hostile is a bit strongly worded given most of us are 60 somethings and collectively have wagered for most of our lives.  Combining rationale and insights, I would offer once anyone that stops learning in this challenging endeavor; your ROI will bear the brunt of certain reality.


A possible future insight might be Peter Miller\'s slow start at Delmar.  PM is mega-talented and has at least a pair for every class in the short book. He trains away from clockers, will drop one off the planet, bets, ( two years ago on a single bet, which he admitted, proudly, he financed both of his young daughters college educations.  

My assertion.  Delmar has been deeper this year and horses with a prior effort over the surface move forward. PM in approximately a hundred starts, this meet, ten wins.  A perennial very high percentage conditioner,  has had 30 some horses finish second or third.  Sequence cappers not including PM the last week, regardless of figures, beware!

bbb

[FrankD.]

bellsbendboy Wrote
>
> As for the race, no question the talented boy,

The talented boy, otherwise known as jockey Joel Rosario seemed to be the talk of the jocks room.

As most locals know Monday night is jocks night out in the Spa. They can even eat a meal as Tuesday is a no flip day..... Heck a couple of them were even spotted having dinner in Jerry Browns Caroline St headquarters last night. It used to be Longfellows for jockey karaoke now Lake Local is the Monday night preference.
I had a chat with a pair younger riders last night one of which has a spot in the top ten money earners YTD. I got quite the WOW from both when I inquired about their thoughts on \"the talented boys\" ride. A quote from one was \"he hates to ride, he only wants to ride 2-3 good ones a day\" that may explain his HOF rides vs the Finger Lakes ones from day to day that create a lot of buzz. Especially here in the land of ground loss!

This was definitely among the most puzzling rides I\'ve ever seen especially in a 5 horse field.

Note to BBB:
Jockeys are human beings that have names. I guess if you take the train to Del Mar you call all the attendants George like they did 100 years ago.
A real CLASS act is the boards resident competent capper.

FD

[jbelfior]

P-Dub:
Ditto JJ\'s ride on Antone. This horse\'s best trips are chasing the pace?

I\'ve seen enough and will now simply avoid the Chad Brown multiple entry races.


Good Luck,
Joe B.

[TempletonPeck]

I wonder how long some lesser trainer at some lesser circuit would get away with running 3 of 5 horses uncoupled with these strange moves, before a boycott was called for?

[TempletonPeck]

FrankD. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Note to BBB:
> Jockeys are human beings that have names. I guess
> if you take the train to Del Mar you call all the
> attendants George like they did 100 years ago.
> A real CLASS act is the boards resident competent
> capper.
>
> FD

Hear, hear.

[RICH]

wouldn\'t the owner of the horse have something to say about that ride, especially if he had to play second fiddle to the other chad horse

[SoCalMan2]

RICH Wrote:
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> wouldn\'t the owner of the horse have something to
> say about that ride, especially if he had to play
> second fiddle to the other chad horse


I think that Lady Eli and Roca Rojo have some common ownership (but not entirely).  Also, even if they didn\'t, I think the owner\'s only choice is to stay with Chad or not stay with Chad.