CAW's and "Special Deals"

[Fairmount1]

Marshall Gramm\'s recent Bet with the Best Pod with Chris has drawn much interest.  Let me focus on some words from Gramm in part 2 around 40 minutes in for a moment.  It is difficult to transcribe exact but here we go with a close attempt:

\"I believe the teams themselves are cutting deals with non-Stronach and [tracks] . . .so NYRA and Stronach own Elite.  All Elite is is an ADW.\"

. . .

\"We do know, we strongly believe the teams have cut deals with other race tracks, so, we hear through the grapevine that it exists, with some of the smaller tracks the teams will cut deals and you can see the dramatic difference in late cycle movements.  The most recent ones have been, at, again I don\'t have any evidence of deals that have been cut, but you see sort of dramatic difference in late cycle movements at Fairmount Park slash Fanduel.\"

\"Whereas last year it was about a third of the money that came in the last cycle.  This year it\'s about two thirds of the money.  So definitely things are going on there.  I don\'t know of anything.  I\'ve never heard anything official.  I\'ve heard whisperings.\"

\"But you can see evidence of it. And I\'ve heard at least rumors of other tracks that in the past that cut special deals.\"  

_________________________________

Now I have been asked to not publicize things I know and have learned.  But when others are starting to highlight things that are known behind the scenes I have no problem bringing it out.  And others know more than I do, are being careful but it is becoming more known, in part, how all of this operates.

This being said, I\'ve proposed someone should pursue a lawsuit against tracks as it relates to CAW\'s.  In the past, the old guard lawyers in these parts come in ranting about you are alleging fraud and can\'t allege with specificity to get past a motion to dismiss.  WRONG.  I\'m saying why not the Sherman AntiTrust Act which outlaws contracts, conspiracies or actions that unreasonably restrain trade or lead to monopolization.  And how about the consumer protection laws in the 40 or so states where ADW\'s operate that are centered in part on deception?  Are we seeing why there is no transparency on the amounts and what really goes on here with the agreements?  The definition of parimuteul wagering surely isn\'t accurate in at least one state.  Churchill is out here making some crazy arguments and getting success (See Michigan). A creative lawyer with too much time on his/her hands, probably a young one who isn\'t a dyed in the wool lawyer born into the trade, could figure out a way to take the tracks and the CAW\'s down in at least some fashion.  

I\'m not being a conspiracy theorist here.  I haven\'t even commented on what I know about potential Past Posting that\'s been shared with me in the very, very recent past as I was asked to not publicize details of that also.  So, for now, let\'s just focus in on the Special Deals.  

I will lastly note that the 2 minute rule at Del mar and 3 minute rule for the win pool at NYRA result in folks like Marshall saying they are Not in the pool.  Well, if they aren\'t in the pool at all, why would that be true?  Their sophisticated models can\'t do as well without the last 2 minutes?  Or. . . ?  I\'ll leave that for you to ponder.  Again, I\'m Being careful here but it is high time that someone go after the tracks and the CAW\'s.

Is anyone out there listening with an open mind?  Get after it.

I\'ll give one special hint.  Maybe call up Roberts Communications and I\'ll stop right there for now.

[Boscar Obarra]

I think Marshall is WRONG about a few things.
 
  He thinks they are not in the double pool and they are.

  Betting last has nothing to do with using the publics odds as input, other than avoiding underlays, which are apparent long before the last flash.

  Back in the day, we\'d stand there like idiots and write down the exacta prices on clipboards, watching for the same \'smart\' money that the CAW now represent .

 There was no way for them to get all their bets in at the last second, so you could spot the action in time to use it .   Today, they don\'t want anyone piggybacking their fine handicapping. That\'s just ONE reason for betting at the bell.   There are others.

  PS Winner of the stake at SAR today got smoked in the Ex pool.   CAW collected  almost half the pool. Anyone mention this anywhere ?

[Fairmount1]

Boscar,

Marshall is a smart guy, credible guy, won the BCBC, owns horses, etc.

You are correct though that there are several items in those 2 segments where he is wrong.  He kept saying that about the Double and I wondered.

There are obviously some things I wish I could say more about but I have to stand by what I promised the folks that clued me in on some things.

[rezlegal]

Fairmount and Boscar- the only possible legal claims against any of the ADWs or tracks is based on the failure to disclose. Let me back up for a second- several years ago as word of Elite’s ownership leaked out, I emailed the geniuses at Xpressbet to express my concern that I was being treated unfairly etc etc. The response- believe it or not- was a denial Xpressbet had any interest in Elite. Given my background and knowing bullshit when I read it, I pressed and asked “ ARE YOU TELLING THAT NO Stronach RELATED ENTITY HAS ANY CONNECTION WITH XPRESSBET.” Of course there was no response. There are two avenues of pursuit. The first is a retail horseplayers boycott. That will not happen. Second, is an appeal to the state legislatures of each track that is licensed by a state to conduct parimutuel wagering. Good luck with that. As painful as it may be to hear, if the tracks/ ADWs make full disclosure of the different “ categories” or levels of rewards they are free to fashion whatever business works for them. I do not intend to turn this into a political discourse, but whatever your political positions may be, we are living through a humongous era of plutocracy where the super big at everything rule and eff you if you don’t like it. It permeates media, technology and yes, horse racing! I was a Saratoga yesterday and the thread that ran through every discussion was CAW, small payouts etc— but the complainers keep betting. As I have previously stated, as long as bettors keep betting nothing will change. Marshall Gramm ain’t gonna help you. The day of the successful retail better is over for 98% of the betting populace. Acknowledging that is very hard, since the game is fun. Most of my handle is contests ( today, like most big race days will be an exception). If you are a TGRAPH player you will do well in the contests. Good luck to all.

[Fairmount1]

Good to see my 1-9 shot whistle through the Graveyard of Favorites this morning to start Travers Day with the post above.
___________________

I\'ll share what I saw on twitter since, again, I was asked to not publicize what I have been told.  

@FrancisQuinnJr on August 13th wrote:  \"Elite 17 was said to be offering the functional equivalent of payday loans to tracks by offering large dollar payments prior to a meet\'s start to a track to obtain terms more favorable on takeout than other CAWs were getting.  Cash upfront at the expense of its competing piranhas.\"  

Now, with host fees and takeout, and each state different with its own rules, the old guard says No Shot.  These tracks are tied to government entities which means the rules might be different than say ones that are private.  Government must in theory be open.  There is room to chase these folks more than you want to portray.  

Where is the takeout going?  What if takeout is not technically being removed due to accounting tricks by the track to accommodate the secret deals?  Sunshine Law Requests?  FOIA Requests?  Lawsuits following up the information requests.  You can get to these folks, you just need to be persistent and follow through.  I could go on and on with how one can chip away at these folks.  I already know you will be in the No Shot Camp; meanwhile the Stronach Group keeps selling off tracks and trying to escape the business as fast as they can.  As a private entity, they don\'t have the support of the govt like NYRA or the sheer casino dollars like CDI and OP if the CAW\'s and the tracks were to be REALLY caught with their hand in the cookie jar . .. . .  

Enough on this.  It is Travers Day and while in Missouri, I won\'t \"keep betting\" as you say since it is one of the few states where ADW\'s can\'t operate.  The laws are different here but I\'m sure you already knew that.  

[Roman]

Boycott one day. It can be done. The way to fight a plutocracy is strength in numbers.

[Fairmount1]

An example of how \"Special Deals\" can lead to conflict of interest and self dealing concerns from Fairmount Park today.

The win pool total for the 10 races was as follows:
 
17k, 28k, 25k, 25k, 20k, 28k, 18k, 22k, 17k, 52k

In the finale, there was 35k on the 3 horse (more than in any other win pool total on the day) who was 1-5 (.20-1 to be exact).  The 3 was passed in the lane by the 7 horse (7-2).  There was bumping but no one would ever say it affected the outcome.  At least no one I am aware of thought it affected the outcome. 3 was not going to win and ended up 2nd a half a length behind (no placing was cost).  

Inquiry.  It happened Very Quickly.  DQ.  1-5 placed on top.  Interesting the trainer of the DQ-ed horse was Scott Becker who trained for William Stirtz, the former owner of Fairmount Park.  He used to train for the guy that had the \"House Horses\" at FP.  But today, his charge that he co-owned and trained was near immediately DQ-ed for the new \"House Horse,\" the one with CAW money on it.  In fact, Becker\'s co-owner was in the Win Circle ready for a win photo when the DQ happened so fast that the camera caught him exiting as the 3 was ushered in for the win picture.  

Winner paid:  $2.40 for $2 win
Exacta paid:  $2.90 for $1
Trifecta paid:  $6.20 for $1

Those are according to the chart.  On track they likely paid less due to the Illinois surcharge to on track patrons.  These special deals are all legit, just trust us, after all horse racing never has any reason to be suspicious.    

A group of guys who follow Fairmount beyond close told me this is the third time this summer the heavy, heavy CAW favorite was shown the winner\'s circle in a similar situation.  

The game is deteriorating on so many fronts oh so fast.

Foal Crops (Field Size)

CAW\'s

Saratoga\'s handle was down 8 plus million today from last year as Sovereignty earns a 115 Beyer on the track.  The $1 pick 6, at Sar as many on here probably know, paid $145.00.  I would love to know where that ranks by comparison to all time Travers Day Pick 6\'s (knowing that the minimum denomination has changed through time).  9 favorites and 3 2nd choices won 12 of the 14 races.

It doesn\'t look promising to me.

[Silver Charm]

I think a Boycott of a week would get people\'s attention. With the threat of we can do this a month if necessary. So what are the Goals or Demands?

More transparent disclosures of wagering internal controls around online wagering protocols? Does anyone scan for HUGE late wagers that seem almost incredibly accurate? Like Insider Traders? How can ANYONE assure Gamblers (Customers) that wagers and big ones are not being made past post time. And if they are are not why are the odds changing drastically after the gate opens? And how can this be changed or improved

Fairmount if a company is listed on the Hong Kong Stock exchange and the financials are not audited would it be wise to invest? How about the movie The Wolf of Wall Street? The Big Short? Or a good book \"When Genius Failed\" about tje fall of Long Term Capital. Manipulators are everyhwere. We need more disclosures. The people taking the bets are not in control. The people who are making them are. They need to unify and have a list of demands.....

[Rbrown1]

Roman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boycott one day. It can be done. The way to fight
> a plutocracy is strength in numbers.


I\'ve lurked on this board for about a decade and this is my first post.
I\'m a small retail player and all fun is now gone. CAW talk is at all time highs in my circle. Even when you win, you lose. I\'m all for a boycott and believe the time is now to organize and make it happen. How? Can we write to the podcasters like itm, hhh, racing dudes, steve byk, etc and propose a date? What needs to happen to officially create national horseplayer boycott day or week? I\'M IN.

[Boscar Obarra]

It\'s not past posting

They have inside information and are also skilled handicappers. A deadly duo.

I\'ve watched them operate for decades.  Trust me .

[Roman]

Silver Charm,
If we can organize one day, it will get their attention.  
Sometimes you have to do what is best for the group, not just for your self.
If the tracks level the playing field,  we all benefit.

As for demands, full transparency would be required to know the extent of the malignant tumor that are CAW\'s.

At the end of the day, we are the customers.  If they do not listen to our voices, let them listen to our dollars. One Saturday hurts them more than it hurts us.

Just think of it like a canceled card due to weather.  Except we will be the storm.

One day.

[johnnym]

Even though I only wager on the big days now and they are deflating with these payouts.
I’m in 100%
One day probably wouldn’t be enough!

[Rich Curtis]

The first step should be making oneself an expert on the history of previous racing boycotts.

[Roman]

Cannot recall any successful wagering boycotts in the past 30 years. I remember a group called \"HANA\", Horseplayers Association of North America about a decade ago, but never gained traction.

They had a pretty clear and simple mission statement, that addresses most of the same issues still existing.

The game is shrinking to much. I played the Travers card, but my handle and churn was down for me almost 90% from just last year.

[Silver Charm]

This is being discussed on X today. One allegation was that in some form the Tracks themselves are a Partners of the CAW and share in the Rebates. This might explain how they allow the Bets to come in so late. We need transparency so bad its a FUC&ING JOKE. These conflicts of Interest are pure fraud

https://x.com/jeff_am_105/status/1959936432891404696?s=42