SARATOGA SEMINAR

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Smarty was a dandy. It would have been interesting with Big Red. I think you\'d have to favor the old guy at the Belmont distance though, but that flies right in the face of other fast time, big margin win positions.

They began running negative 5 and 6 around Smarty\'s time and he never achieved that, but I tend to think he would have hammered out those numbers easily at 9 marks and done so with a \"whoosh\".

Fans of the game lost out when he retired prematurely. Chronic foot bruises my butt. Sure he was nicked, but he was just too valuable to keep running. TGraph knows something about breeding value.

[miff]

TGJB,

Careful now, logic is one thing, you have ZERO science.

[kev]

Thing is Big Red soon as he started to race against the older\'s he wasn\'t the monster. Still a damn fine horse but he ran 3 times vs olders on dirt and only won 1 and the next two wins came on turf, which is a very great thing he did there winning G1\'s on dirt and truf. Just like S.Jones would have love to see him run at 4.

[TGJB]

You need to read that whole thing over again, carefully. Especially the part about the British guy, and the Time-Form ratings.

By the way, the Earth IS flat. Just look out your window, or stand on it. Everybody knows it-- or KNEW it, anyway, just look at the maps they used to make. How could they all be wrong? Just like \"everybody\" knows how great Secretariat is.

The figure makers who don\'t think horses are getting faster are those using pars based on the ASSUMPTION that the world is flat-- whoops, I mean that horses aren\'t getting faster. The ones who say it without using figures are the same guys who looked out their window and said the world was flat, just look.

I really don\'t know why I\'m wasting time on this with you again, except maybe because the flat world thing was so perfect for this.

[miff]

KEV,

The discussion really centered around 3yr old Smarty vs 3yr Sec. If you can, take a look at Smarty\'s Belmont and then Sec\'s Belmont and let me know if you agree with Jerry that Smarty would have beaten SEC \"by quite a bit\". A truly brilliant and informed opinion by Jerry with the entire racing world in agreement.

[miff]

TGJB,

Nice try!!! Where is the Science? Your opinion is worthless as is mine and all others.

[kev]

That\'s where your worng on that one, it\'s not the BEL. race it\'s the derby race that was the best for S. JONES.

[kev]

Well sorry, it was two races before the derby that was the fastest for S. Jones, but the derby he got a neg.1.3 something like that......thing is TG wasn\'t making figs. for the early 70\'s when Big Red was around, only Rag\'s was then. They had Big Red running a 1- in the derby and a 1- in the Bel. and S.Jones ran a 0+ in the derby and a 2- in the Bel. I don\'t know if JB was working with Rag\'s then, but maybe he heard something from them over the years about Big Red and the Bel. win or the fast derby score, like the track speed that day.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Kev, I couldn\'t remember Big Red losing two of three dirt starts to olders as you stated, so i looked it up. You are correct.

The first he lost was the Whitney to Onion (yestersdays version of Commentator if I don\'t miss my guess)

http://www.secretariat.com/races/race17.htm

He then rematched Onion at Belmont and set a track record.

http://www.secretariat.com/races/marlborocup.htm

Lastly he went in a 12 mark Woodward (Isn\'t it 9 marks now?...dang racing has receded.) and on a sloppy track he ran what on the numbers looks to be his worst race. Not a very superhorseish finish on dirt, maybe thats why Smarty got out early.

http://www.secretariat.com/races/race19.htm

heres the main link http://www.secretariat.com/past_performance.htm

still a very impressive record. That kind of record today would earn about 12 million on the track i expect. Thats just a guess factoring in five million bonus.

[Kasept]

This was the first year TG has presented Toga Seminars, while Ragozin has been doing them here for years... The 20-30 attendees we\'ve had on a typical Saturday, (and 40+ on Travers), is a strong initial showing. There has also been a terrific comraderie generated by the gatherings as TG players met each other and consistently re-connected throughout the week(s) at the \'Cue.

Hope some of you will be around for the Finale Weekend...

Steve

I\'ll be in Saratoga on Friday - Sunday.

Which days will there be a seminar and at what time?

I would like to attend.  

[Saddlecloth]

I just dont get all the bickering about figures, who is faster then who from one era to the next, what in reality does it matter, figures are only a part of the equation to reach a common goal.  I just dont understand why the figure dominates this board when it should be how the figures relate to the race at hand.  Look at Travers, looks to me like the figures held up well and it came down to the other limitless handicapping factors....yet hardly even think those are a factor using this methodology.

Sounds to me like these figures are a replacement for hard work.  No offense, but read the threads, its hard to not think other wise.

[TGJB]

Alan will be leading the discussion groups. (For everyone else they are a discussion group. For you, think of it as a movie. Especially since they only will have about 5 minutes per race). He\'ll be in later today, I think we\'ll be doing them all 3 days, starting at 11:00, if there is any change we\'ll post.

[magicnight]

Why are you so sure that Class doesn\'t talk back to the movie screen?

\"(For everyone else they are a discussion group. For you, think of it as a movie. Especially since they only will have about 5 minutes per race). \"

Now that was funny.

What makes you think I would identify myself and give you guys a chance to call security and have me thrown out.

Seriously, I don\'t intend to do or say anything other than enjoy the day and listen to what\'s said.