Jockey Change - Belmont, 6/10, 12th race

[BitPlayer]

Imallin -

You\'re right.  There\'s no correct answer here any more than there\'s a correct answer to the designated-hitter debate in baseball.  Horse racing is a game, and the rules can be anything that the tracks and their regulators say they are.  They can formulate the rules to reward any skills they choose.  For trainers, the favored skills may include the ability to move a horse up by the administration of steroids or undetected medications.  For bettors, the favored skills may included weather forecasting or the ability to set up a batch wagering operation.

My own view is that catering to batch wagering will ultimately drive more dollars from the sport than it attracts, but I don\'t pretend to have my finger on the pulse of mainstream horseplayers.

[asfufh]

TGJB said:-- Should they bar software from the stock market too? How about barring TG, since it helps people win?


They haven\'t barred Program Trading in the stock market but they sure have instituted a bunch of rules to restrict it in the interests of fairness to all  investors.
Check out this:
http://invest-faq.com/articles/exch-circuit-brkr.html

[Boscar Obarra]

 Restrict it? It\'s so restricted its over 50% of the NYSE volume. Please.


asfufh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TGJB said:-- Should they bar software from the
> stock market too? How about barring TG, since it
> helps people win?
>
>
> They haven\'t barred Program Trading in the stock
> market but they sure have instituted a bunch of
> rules to restrict it in the interests of fairness
> to all  investors.
> Check out this:
>

[asfufh]

Boscar Obarra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restrict it? It\'s so restricted its over 50% of
> the NYSE volume. Please.
>
>
Boscar O., Ok,Program trading may be 50% but the NYSE volume....so what?
My point is the stock exchanges quickly put in the needed restrictions to control the obvious negative side effects of program trading on the stock market as a whole. The racing industry can do the same thing with Computerized Robotic Wagering instead of looking the other way until it gets out of hand.
Asfufh

[miff]

According to Bill Nader, SVP NYRA, there is NO access to live NYRA pool data by anyone making Robotic bets(last second multiple wagers)from any licensed signal operator.

The site/s that were allowing last minute Robotic wagers are still barred and there are internal programs combing the live NYRA pools looking for any possible offenders.NYRA is comfortable with the current integrity of it\'s pools.


Mike

[Boscar Obarra]

 Truth be told, NYRA, Youbet , and the others should already be offering batch wagering to EVERYONE.

 The online interfaces are primitive and slow at best, and as usual , decades behind other markets.

 No reason I shouldn\'t be able to send a 10 or 100  bets in at once from a personal computer, calculated from an Excel spreadsheet.

 Done all the time with stocks. Is racing so narrow minded ?

[asfufh]

Boscar Obarra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth be told, NYRA, Youbet , and the others
> should already be offering batch wagering to
> EVERYONE.>
>  The online interfaces are primitive and slow at
> best, and as usual , decades behind other
> markets.>
>  No reason I shouldn\'t be able to send a 10 or 100
>  bets in at once from a personal computer,
> calculated from an Excel spreadsheet.>
>  Done all the time with stocks. Is racing so
> narrow minded ?

Boscar, Yes, all the tracks,Youbet, etc. should be offering batch betting to EVERYONE (and immediate electronic access to the info in the tote pools)....that should do away with the unfair advantage now enjoyed by a chosen few.

Can\'t you see it now, every bettor waiting until the last possible milli-second to click their \"process wager\" button on the 8th race at Belmont. The win and exotic pools would go from a couple of 100 bucks with a minute to go to post to 3 or 4 million just as the race goes off. The final odds would still be changing after the race is over. All hell would break loose as a 15-1 shot at one minute to go wins the race and pays $4.20.
The stock market and a pari-mutual pool are two different animals....what works in the stock market doesn\'t necessarily work in a pari-mutual setting.
They should ban batch/stream betting and electronic access to tote pools as has been done in several other countries or get rid of pari-mutual betting altogether.
Asfufh

[asfufh]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to Bill Nader, SVP NYRA, there is NO
> access to live NYRA pool data by anyone making
> Robotic bets(last second multiple wagers)from any
> licensed signal operator.
>
> The site/s that were allowing last minute Robotic
> wagers are still barred and there are internal
> programs combing the live NYRA pools looking for
> any possible offenders.NYRA is comfortable with
> the current integrity of it\'s pools.
>
>
> Mike

Miff/Mike, Thanks for checking with NYRA.....Good for them!
It\'s too bad but ,as far as I can tell, the NYRA and Woodbine (and possibly Tampa) are the only North American tracks that currently ban this type of betting. The Churchill and  Magna appear to wholeheartedly allow it.
It\'s hard enough trying to stay afloat in this great game without this type of crap going on.....why isn\'t the NTRA being heard from on this?
Asfufh

[Boscar Obarra]

 I\'m afraid you don\'t understand what the batch bettors are doing, so of course, you fear them.

 Anyone has the right to bet anything they want , anytime , until the pool closes.


 If they want to bet 100k on a 200-1 exacta, and have it pay 2.60, thats allowed. You think anyone is going to do that?

  Pro\'s have always bet late, thats nothing new.

  Race fixers and other insiders can bet from bell to bell, since the price they get is secondary to them.

  Late betting is not the issue, large rebates for a select few is.

[P-Dub]

When I sell my stocks, my broker doesn\'t call me 5 minutes later saying the price went down because 100,000 shares were sold after me. My price is locked the moment I sell them.

I am not saying my odds should be locked in, but wild fluctuations in odds moments before post time is unfair to the majority of players who don\'t batch. So the poor slobs that actually attend live racing should just live with it while some guy at a computer can batch wager until his heart\'s content??

I don\'t want to hear anyone around here mention how sad it is that attendance at race tracks is so low, and in the same breath tell me how batch wagering should be allowed. I guess they should all carry laptops, right??

[imallin]

I agree wholeheartedly.

As long as a person isn\'t betting after the start, any amount they bet at any time in any way is acceptable.

Once they start letting the best customers wager a few seconds AFTER the start is when we have problems.

Hey, life isn\'t fair. I want to date a nice chick who\'s a 10, but i don\'t have 50 million in the bank to put her feet to sleep at night. Thats not fair either, but i live with it and go on.

Like i\'ve said here ad nauseum, you DO have the ability to batch bet yourself. Its not like you are being excluded.

[jmetro]

It is the perception that batch wagering causes which is bad for the industry.  Again I ask how is it that the some of these players have better technology than the tracks themselves?  A sophisticated player can program a system to search for, and bet, value within a host track\'s pools within seconds, yet the host track themselves cannot \"batch\" these same wagers, from the various simulcast outlets, after the pools supposedly close, until 45 seconds into a race.

Honestly I think many tracks allow a few extra seconds for all wagers to hit their pools, and most of this is coming from the \"batch\" operations, or offshore type accounts.  If you were a mutual manager and knew that 25% of your pool hit right at post wouldn\'t you allow a few seconds, after the horses break, to close your pools?  Oh, they will close the pools when the bell rings on the regulars at the live event, but if they know that $50K is on it\'s way through North Dakota they will leave a light on for them.

[imallin]

Good point about perception.

Also, i agree with the technology and how sophisticated players have better technology than the tracks themselves is insane. There should be a way to process wagers every 10 seconds or so, as soon as the bet comes in, it shows up on the tote board.

The last minute of the betting cycle is HUGE. Tons of money comes in with 60 seconds to post, but no one sees that money till its too late. Even if they had a 30 second update that would matter a lot because half of that late money would show up in the pools.

[P.Eckhart]

http://www.edbain.com/archives2.htm#drfexpo at the DRF Expo

We broke for lunch and during that time I had an interesting conversation with one of the owners of United Tote regarding the really big bettors in racing that were betting millions. He stated that there are only eight players or consortiums betting on racing in the world and almost all were individuals who headed a group.
          I said there is this impression that there are thousands of big players betting millions each day. He laughed and said no believe me I know them all, there are only eight because he has tried to recruit them to bet through United Totes host tracks, but with out much success. He stated this was because they can’t offer the rebates that an off shore rebate shop can. We talked about how these consortiums bet by using computer programs hooked into the tote systems and the advantages they have. He stated that these groups of bettors could not beat the take, without the rebate, they would lose money. I shook my head, and said it would seem to me you would have to show a positive Return On Investment before you could bet millions through a rebate shop. He stated no, they have found a way to beat the system by betting millions each month by enticing off shore rebate shops to take their bets and use their influence and computers, which were hooked directly to the betting pools. He stated “they also have another advantage other than exploiting betting pools with their computer programs. They have about a ¼ of a mile run before the tote companies betting windows close”.  I said “A ¼ of a mile?”  He nodded “Yes.”

[1st time lasix]

I happen to be standing with Ed Bain at the DRF expo that day. We were shocked that the tracks/tote companies allowed money to come into the pools up to twenty seconds after the gates opened. From that moment on...I have tried to avoid tracks that allow this money to come in late. {Calder}  Ed and I figured that someone with an early speed program would hammer that meaningful advantage. Since I don\'t know all the tracks that allow it....I also stay away from the win pools where I see dramitic drops in odds on front runners. I mention this fact to Matt Hegerty of the Form. he said he had no evidence of it.  I responded by saying open your eyes to the odds board after the gates open. Very unfair.