New to Thorograph

[Holy Bull]

Let me apologize in advance for this topic, because I\'m sure you have exhausted it on this site.  However, here I go.  I\'m a Ragozin Sheets user for over two years.  So for all intensive purposes, clearly still a \"rookie.\"  Friend of mine has bought Thorograph once or twice and also gets the ROTW now and then.

I\'m not sure which product is better, because I have no experience with TG.  I searched the forum for some comparisons and posts regarding the two, but found nothing to help me differentiate the two.

The one thing I do know, is that this website \"lays over the field.\"  Very user friendly and I enjoyed going back and listening to JB\'s BC recaps.  Very thorough, and informative.

Can someone please point me to information I can find to make an informed and unbiased decision.

Thanks in advance.

Regardless, I look forward to reading all the posts here.  

[TGJB]

Holy-- I\'m pretty sure I haven\'t exhausted the subject just yet. The basic difference in the way Ragozin and I make figures is discussed in \"Changing Track Speeds\", which can be viewed and listened to in the Archives section of this site. The difference in the PRODUCTS (separate question) should be self-evident-- trainer and pedigree profiles, etc.

The best way to make a decision is to look at both. We have the Red Board Room available daily-- you can look at all the data from the previous day at all tracks and make your own determinations.

(By the way, another way to go would be to look at the level of discussion on both sites. Or to note that guys using our data have won 3 of the last 4 NTRA Nationals, and one finished third the other year. Only one person has won using Ragozin, and she has since switched to TG).

[Holy Bull]

Thanks for the reply.

I look forward to trying it out.  Maybe the late pick 4 at CD tomorrow.

One more question though.  It appears as though the Rags had Red Rocks and Ouija Board rated higher than your sheets did. As a matter of fact OB was a cinch by the Rags (IMO).   Not going on a limb here with her 7/5 price, but is there a different methodology to acquiring the Euro figuresbetween the two companies? Or would you say this was an anomaly. Also Ragozin does not supply Euro figures for say a regular card at Saratoga, does TG supply those numbers?

This website is awesome by the way.  Allows someone to learn the product without having to go through the expense.

Thanks Again!

[TGJB]

Holy-- we do have some Euro figures on a regular basis. As for the BC, when both camps post their BC figures, you can judge for yourself whose figures were more accurate by looking to see how close they came to running back to them. This assumes you kept your Ragozin BC sheets, since they only post the BC number-- we\'ll post the whole sheet for each horse. The key is to look at all the horses, not just the winners, who by definition ran well.

Ouija Board will get a figure (on both) only slightly better than several other fillies in the race. She lost less ground on the turns than pretty much everyone-- she\'ll either match her TG top or get a slight new top, less than a point.

And yes, I would assume we do things differently, since we come up with different figures.

[Holy Bull]

TGJB,

One last question on this and I promise I will let it go (for now at least).

From what I gathered last night a major difference between TG & Rag is that TG takes a different variant for almost every race on a card where Rag uses a sole variant throughout the course of the day?  

1) Is this correct?


2) Are there any other glaring differences?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[MJ02X]

I agree Jerry. Your interactive website is very impressive. I wish that the Ragozin website could emulate your website. I guess they are \"staid and stoic\" and only belive in pure numbers.

[bobphilo]

Close, but not quite. Rags goes with an single daily variant and TG starts out with that varient and looks to see if any race\'s times look out of whack with it (indicating the track speed changed) and redoes the variant for theses races. He doesn\'t automatically break off each race.
I\'m sure Jerry can give you a more detailed explanation of how he does it.

Bob

[TGJB]

Holy-- the difference is that we don\'t make the ASSUMPTIONS that Ragozin does-- that track \"speed\" stays the same throughout the day (and according to his book, on different days), that the variant for one and two turn races is the same. All this is covered in depth in \"Changing Track Speed\", my presentation from the 2004 DRF Expo, which can be found in the Archives section of this site. If you listen to it you will see that there is actual scientific evidence that track speed changes throughout the day, according to scientists that have done studies of the racing surfaces.

[TGJB]

MJ02X-- Beleiving purely in numbers and believing in pure numbers are two different things. So are believing in pure numbers and believing in \"pure\" numbers.

0-2-X, huh?

[MJ02X]

Speaking of 02X\'S, thanks for the one at Bay Meadows today. To me, when your numbers work in paterns,(02X, =TOPS, etc.) it only verifies to me even more, that your mumbers are accurate. Whatever you are doing,please keep it up. Thanks.