Invasor?

[fkach]

Michael,

One of the problems with going back as far as Swaps is that few if any of us actually saw those horses run or are very familiar with the competition and quality of the impressive final times they might have put up.

I have no doubt that Swaps was a great horse, but the only person I ever met that actually saw most of the old time greats swore up and down that Count Fleet would have destroyed all of them. It\'s hard for me to take that kind of thing too seriously without first hand knowledge.

For me, the modern era starts with Buckpasser, Damascus, Fager and Kelso. Even though I never saw any of them run live, I\'ve seen enough film and PPs of their opponents etc... to be sure of their greatness.

[Michael D.]

fkach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Michael,
>
> One of the problems with going back as far as
> Swaps is that few if any of us actually saw those
> horses run or are very familiar with the
> competition and quality of the impressive final
> times they might have put up.
>
> I have no doubt that Swaps was a great horse, but
> the only person I ever met that actually saw most
> of the old time greats swore up and down that
> Count Fleet would have destroyed all of them.


just an educated guess fk, as all this is. look at those numbers though - 130 lbs, 1:58 3/5 .... some of the Cal tracks were super fast back then, so again, it\'s all just speculation. makes for great conversation though.

[fkach]

I hear ya.  

By the way, you left off Slew. Please tell me that was an accident. ;-)

[Michael D.]

12. Seattle Slew

[fkach]

Wow, you rate Bernardini, Invasor, Ghostzapper,and Alydar over Seattle Slew even though Slew beat Affirmed. That should make for at least some lively conversation.  Have a nice night. ;-)

[Silver Charm]

They were all over the place, it was out of control. The usual suspects, there is no need to embarrass some writers anymore than they already have done themselves by mentioning them by name.

Thats not my style.

Hey Michael D that list of yours doesn\'t include Seattle Slew, Man O\'War or Mineshaft who on TG numbers was faster than all of them.

I guess you just don\'t \"Trust the Numbers\".......

Anyway I could actually see GZ and Bernardini being, \"Eased, Vanned Off\" in that bunch and Invasor receiving the proverbial, \"Failed to Menace\".........

[richiebee]

I think Exceller beat Affirmed AND Slew at 1-1/2 miles in the 78 JCGC.

[Michael D.]

fkach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow, you rate Bernardini, Invasor, Ghostzapper,and
> Alydar over Seattle Slew even though Slew beat
> Affirmed. That should make for at least some
> lively conversation.  Have a nice night. ;-)


re Slew - 1:49.3 Wood, 2:02.1 Derby, 2:29.3 Belmont, then buried when they went 1:58 out west. his next route was a loss in 1:48 at the Meadowlands. the 1:45.4 win over Affirmed was brilliant, and you have the fast Flamingo and Stuyvesant Handicap wins.

reasonable people could disagree. most would have him higher. I could be wrong.

[richiebee]

Coach:

To me OB\'s most impressive accomplishment was winning GR 1s on 3 different
continents.

[fkach]

>I think Exceller beat Affirmed AND Slew at 1-1/2 miles in the 78 JCGC.<

Yea, but everyone on the planet knows that Slew was miles the best that day.

[NoCarolinaTony]

Silver,

Been kinda busy lately, but thought I should respond in some fashion. I think the line of demarcation for Thoroughbred greatness continues to decrease as we expect less and less from our runners and seek out quicker financial returns. therefore the standards of yesteryear no longer can apply as no one today tries for immortality except those horse that show up like Cigar or Skip Away John Henry. I am not a cheerleader for Invasor but merely accepting the facts that he did all he was asked for at the highest level they offer today.

As for the honor to on the committee, I am honored to not only be nominated but will accept. Let me know when the next meeting is scheduled.

NC Tony

[Silver Charm]

>I am not a cheerleader for Invasor

And I am not his number one basher. He really was a good horse. And yes he did everything he was asked and in races like the Donn and Whitney he even did a little more.

However the more fragile breed or greed for stud dollars creating early retirements should not lower the bar for determining greatness. Horses like Kelso, Forego and now Lava Man do not have one of those alternatives. They remind me of that line from the Movie 3, \"All I wanna do is race\". In several respects these horses have received near Immortality status simply because they had no where else to go and were very very good at what they did.

Glad to hear you have generously accepted your spot on the Greatness Committee. Mall was removed and replaced by the Honorable Bobphilo. Mall was deemed to be in bed with too many Lexington Breeders (not literally) and hence would be voting all of their horses as Great to generate a higher valuation hence a bigger Commission for himself.  

The first meeting is Opening Weekend at Saratoga at Siros. See you there and who knows, maybe the next Great One...........

[richiebee]

\"...Forego and now Lava Man...\" ?#!*?!

Lava Man was a great claim.

The Committee might have to meet at Desperate Annies instead of Siro\'s

[Uncle Buck]

I\'m late chiming in on this but my thoughts are simply this: Candy Stripes has sired some friggin\' MONSTERS...I would bet that Candy Ride ran faster than Invasor on thorograph sheets even though he ran only once or twice in the states. I just remember him running by Medaglia d\'Oro like he was stnading still in the Pacific Classic...

[slewzapper]

Esteemed committee members:

May I suggest you create three categories - Great, Potentially Great, and Singular Great Performances. Lately there have been many in the latter two categories.

Great - the usual seventies-era icons, John Henry, maybe Cigar and Skippy.

Potentially Great - the sparsely run dominating horses, premature retirees, eg. Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex, G-zapper, Invasor, Point Given, Tiznow, B-dini, Mineshaft. It would be interesting to speculate which of the potentially great would have become legendary had they been allowed/lasted to race for three full campaigns.

Singular Great Performances - Bellamy Road\'s Wood, Pleasant Home\'s BC Distaff. Keeneland dirt performances cannot qualify.