How fast was it?

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Silver Charm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Barry,
>
> A couple of things. I for one do not believe
> Pletcher is juicing anymore. He has the best
> people and the best horses. He also gives his
> horses considerable time between races which is
> conducive to large tops. We saw some of all of the
> above work together on Saturday with Lawyer Ron.>

Lets look at some \"chronological \"facts\"\". I can\'t enable some to review evidence, consider conflicts, process information and apply logical deductions in the manner that I do. Some things are just too much to ask of those that don\'t have the background. It\'s like asking a man thats never read or studied the Constitution and the reasons that it was written for his opinion upon 4th amendment issues and conflict between the branches of government. The Founding Fathers understood that the common man was the backbone of the nation, but also that a farmer was not constituted to consider matters of the greater good, law, ethics and principle and that is why they set up a representative government of checks and balances. They understood a charismatic man could influence those that were too busy to pay attention. This danger exists also in horse racing, albeit with far lesser consequences.

Now some evidence. They found a rifle in the Texas Schoolbook Depository registered to an alias of Lee Harvey Oswald. (An alias identification found in his belongings upon his arrest.) Witnesses on the fifth floor heard three shots and metallic sounds clinking upon the ceiling/floor \"above\" them. The FBI recovered three ejected cartridge casings upon the sixth floor of the building. The FBI ballistically identified the casings as having been discharged by the rifle registered to the alias found in the possession of Lee Harvey Oswald. Ballistic testing of bullet fragments recovered from the Presidential Limo, Presidents Body and Hospital gurney confirmed their discharge from the subject recovered rifle. Lee Harvey Oswald worked in the Subject Building and was seen carrying a large package to work the day of the shooting. Oswald departed work after the shooting and an officer was killed near where he was apprehended and ballistics upon recovered casings at that murder scene confirmed the rounds were discharged from a revolver recovered upon Oswald\'s person at the time of his arrest. Oswald was a Marine certified Expert Marksman and his weapon was a 2000 ft per second plus muzzle velocity weapon.

Now, if its within you look hard at the known facts of the Pletch inquiry and tell this board the evidence supports another explanation. I\'m not going to do it for you, that\'s your assignment.

CtC

[Silver Charm]

Chuckles besides doping all of his horses are you now implying that Pletcher was the one who shot President Kennedy?

What\'s your point?

[spa]

I think Chuckles said Todd took the Lindbergh baby.............

[Silver Charm]

And he was/is the Zodiac killer.........

[lfe2211]

Barry Irwin, you completely misunderstood my question on blood doping. I was not accusing TAP of doing this. I merely asked the question--is the current testing technology capable of identifying equine blood doping by any trainer by any means, including recombinant EPO.

On a related subject, I am astounded by this article from the drf.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/87194.html

Here are 2 excerpts:

The American Graded Stakes Committee, which is overseen by the Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association, moved to add the anabolic steroids to the post-race testing regimen after receiving reports that anabolic steroids were present in at least half of the post-race samples of horses that won 30 graded stakes last year, according to Andrew Schweigardt, the secretary of the committee and an official of TOBA.


The regulation of steroid use has become a major topic of discussion in the U.S. racing industry in the past 18 months. The U.S. is the only major racing jurisdiction in the world that allows the unregulated use of anabolic steroids, which can build muscle mass, restore a horse\'s appetite, and help horses recover from strenuous exercise.

[NoCarolinaTony]

I guess I got my answer.

You think the guy\'s a juicer and don\'t think it\'s worth confronting the guy.

Lawyers Ron was performance was performance aided. So that means that ultimately that you are indirectly saying your buddy Barry Irwin is a liar.

Got it.

NC Tony

[NoCarolinaTony]

I thought he was saying Commentator was his father.....

NC Tony

[NoCarolinaTony]

I think it\'s fair game to ask the man what his position is on having his name show up in the program, and if you got evidence or good speculative evidence on the man, than it is you duty to confront him wherever and whenever you can.

NC Tony

[P-Dub]

Just watched \"The Bronx Is Burning\".  Chuckles just shot another couple in a car.

[miff]

\"My post was not sour grapes due to a losing bet. I have no axe to grind re TAP. Again, is the current testing methodology capable of demonstrating blood doping in horses by any trainer, either with exogenous drugs like EPO or by transfusion of autologous (the horse\'s own) blood \"




lfe221,

There is a test for blood dope, it\'s expensive, rarely used(some venues have performed random unannounced testing) and could not possibly detect all of the variations of EPO which the chemists are able to mask/change. That from someone involved in NYRA drug testing.

Re steroids, you may not know that they have been around for a long time and are legally used by many outfits big and small, legit trainers and crooked ones alike.All of these issues are being looked into and it the case of NYRA specifically, additional slot monies will allow some advanced testing.It\'s in the plan if the current NYRA management gets the future franchise.

Much of the screaming about drug performances are from people getting waxed at the windows or from trainers unable to compete.Some trainers use this as an excuse to their owners who get lots of bills and few purse checks.

Some good things on the legal/illegal drug horizon and the guys that are using illegal stuff must be aware that there is finally a \"kinda\" national push to stop them. There is still little oneness amongst the different states/racing managers that control/license racing and the feds will surely f--k it up if they get involved.


mike

[fkach]

>Lawyers Ron was performance aided.<

The problem with this is that LR demonstrated clear cut rankness issues in his 3YO career. Most pace sensitive handicappers ABSOLUTELY KNEW that he had more ability/potential than most final time handicappers were giving him credit for last year.  

If you correct that problem, throw in some maturity development, and give TP just a little credit, this was hardly a shocking performance at this point in his form cycle. It\'s not like Wanderin Boy etc... are giants in the racing world. THis was a very very deep field, but there probably wasn\'t a legitimate Grade 1 horse in the race (until now). He wiped out a solid field, but not in an totally uncommon way unless you totally trust a clocking that is clearly suspect as to track speed.

The thing about TP that his critics refuse to acknowledge is that when his horses develop, they do so over time. He rarely gets a new horse and moves it up immediately (like some trainers). He\'s had LR for a long time.  

That strongly suggests that something else is involved. Maybe it\'s horsemanship. Maybe it\'s horsemanship and steroids (or something else that takes time). Who knows. But IMHO, it\'s a lot harder to toss around accusations against a man that gets the best stock, best help, best treatments, works his ass off, and rarely has a giant move up first time he has a horse. The PP\'s of his horses rarely smell bad like some for some trainers.

[lfe2211]

Miff,

Thanks much for the informative response.

It seems like the board (like the racing industry) has become so polarized on drugging issues that simple requests for information are automatically interpreted as attacks and/or gripes against trainer XYZ for using illegal drugs. When I first posed my question, I should not have used TAP/Lawyer Ron as a preface to asking the question.

I\'m a biochemist so I do know a little about how one tests for entities like rEPO. In the course of researching the question of blood doping in horses on my own, I discovered that \"Lassie Viren style\" blood doping (transfusing one\' own frozen away highly oxygenated red blood cells back into the circulatory system on race day) does not work in horses because of equine physiology. When horses exert themselves, their massive spleens automatically inject huge amounts of highly oxygenated hemoglobin into their circulatory systems, in effect, \"blood doping\" themselves. So, this leads me to be perplexed on the actual positive value of rEPO on horse racing performance unless that horse has an anemic condition. That\'s what rEPO is used for in humans--to boost red cells as a result of anti-cancer (or other)  drugs with cause anemia as a side effect.

Anabolic steroids are a different matter. They will definitely produce a \" Bondsian\" effect on horses if used appropriately.

[miff]

LFE2211,

A biochemist, very interesting, you should share your knowledge more often. Of interest, there are two things which I have heard over the years.

1. A horse would be \"bled\" to allow new blood to replace it and thereby get a new blood boost. True??


2.Drumroll please,a rouge vet/researcher states that milkshakes have the \"opposite\" effect on a horse and does not help but hinders performance.From a bio view is there science either way?

Thanks,
Mike

[Lost Cause]

Chuckles wrote...\"Now some evidence. They found a rifle in the Texas Schoolbook Depository registered to an alias of Lee Harvey Oswald. (An alias identification found in his belongings upon his arrest.) Witnesses on the fifth floor heard three shots and metallic sounds clinking upon the ....CtC..

It looks like Chuckles might be dipping into the old pharmaceutical bag himself, it seems ilke the stuff he is using is stronger than anything Pletcher can get his hands on........

[lfe2211]

Miff,

Unfortunately, my job often gets in the way of my passion--horse racing. So, there will be long periods of time when I won\'t be able to follow all the discussions on the board. However, this is the best place I have found to discuss these issues, biases, passions and ad hominem responses notwithstanding. Jerry Brown is to be complimented for providing such a forum no matter what your view is on his figure making methodology. IMO, his is the most grounded in scientific principles, e.g. see all the work on the potential for changing race surfaces during the course of a day.

As to your first question, note that I am not an equine vet who would better answer your questions. Nonetheless,  after doing my own research, on a simplistic level, it seems logical that bleeding a horse will force its spleen to inject newly high oxygenated blood into its system. Timing would be crucial. As with all complex regulated physiologic systems though, I don\'t know what other detrimental effects if any, might ensue as a result of repeated bleeding.

As to the second question, simplistically a \"milkshake\" is an attempt to add a basic pH  buffering agent (sodium bicarbonate) to combat the acidic effects of lactic acid buildup in muscles which causes their fatigue. A vet would know  better but, IMO, the positive effects should be minimal--you\'d need one hell of a lot of bicarb to buffer the lactic acid produced in a 1000 lb race horse running at high speed.

The key concept for both questions is that all physiologic systems are highly and tightly regulated to combat wild swings up or down. It would be good for the board to have an articulate equine vet who was not connected to the racing industry post to answer such questions more authoritatively.