A Tail of Two Meets and Question for TGJB

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuck,

>
> I think, surprisingly, that you drank too much of
> the conspiracy White Mercedes stuff and lost focus
> of basic issues such as pricey fast stock and
> superior horse flesh. Fast horses make trainers
> look like  better horsemen than they are.There is
> no substitute for talented horses except for
> illegal designer drugs.How are all of these things
> happening with NO ONE droping a dime and no real
> positives to speak of.The greatest conspiracy
> ever, this TAP thing you latched on.

First off, I have never conceded that Plech has the best horseflesh. The reality is that Plech spends his clients money at yearling auctions upon untested horses. With that type of stock acquistion there is reliance upon the acumen of the trainer to spot a horse that will not just get to the races but one that will win at the highest level. For every Scat Daddy there are 15 Green Monkeys and for every Green Monkey there are 500 horses costing far less with capable pedigrees.

Recently the Plech Stable has made a \"talking point\" out of the fact that it takes good horses to win and that they could not succeed without a continuing influx of top horseflesh. I think Lawyer Ron is a perfect illustration of what they state publically without elaboration. Ron was clearly a good horse. He was fast and aggressive, but he was a little distance limited. Once Plech got him he transformed. He left a well established performance threshold behind and advanced into a performance realm that no horse has entered before. As explanation for this transformation Plech had the audacity to state he put a better exercise rider upon him mornings.

I know people are gullible and will generally believe what someone in a position they are unfamilar with tells them, but it never ceases to amaze me.

The theme of this thread addresses the paucity of positives. We can\'t beat Lawyer Ron right now, but theres something afoot in the cheating realm. Theres been a change, I\'m trying to deduce precisely what. I think it involves a change to or within bloodpacking.  
>


> There seems to be a small group of cheaters in NY
> who have stayed ahead of testing but with that
> playing field being leveled in the near future, it
> will really be interesting to see how the win
> percentage of some will be affected.Stay tuned.

Plech changed his methods at Saratoga. I\'m optimistic the trend will continue at Belmont.

>
>
> Mike

[miff]

First off, I have never conceded that Plech has the best horseflesh.



Chuck,

With the exception of the Sheikh, who doesn\'t race here that much,it is not even close. A roster of TAP runners shows strong coverage in EVERY division dirt/ turf, fillies/ mares/ colts and it\'s by design, not coincidence.Believe me there is no barn, even in the same area of code when it comes to pure stock.Interesting you did not identify the outfit YOU feel has better stock.

I am not the least bit surprised that Lawyer Ron, a \"hard hitter\", even when Holthius had him at 3, has developed as a 4yr old.It\'s not like LR was a bum that has been Oscarized by TAP,at least not imo. Actually at three, I did not like this horse that much at the 1 and 1/4 distance and will be looking to take a shot against him depending on how they line up in the BC classic.


Mike

[docicu3]

It\'s been awhile since I have posted but given my professional background on the topic I can\'t resist:

1)  Auto transfusion after \"preparing\" RBC\'s as probably Lasse Viren did in the 1970\'s requires only an extraction or phlebotomy \"treatment\" and replacement.  Donor Blood with all the complexities of minor and major antibody match makes working with the blood of another incredibly difficult and may even require immunosurpressives.

2) The laws of laminar flow and viscosity make polycythemia or providing additional red cell mass as a means of improving oxygen delivery very limited.
Moreover the oxygen delivery equations provide very little advantage at hemoglobin\'s above ten grams with DO2 or oxygen delivery  

3) There is no role for a discussion of \"plasma or other blood components\" given that oxygen is minimally dissolved (1.34 ml/gram of Hgb) but is carried very well in delivery by the tetra-mere or 4 binding site molecule heme.  It\'s the red cells that deliver the O2 predicated by the Ph of the tissues as acidic environments unload more O2.

Anaerobic and aerobic metabolism for human disease states are dependent on blood products to remain in a buffered state,or rapid removal of lactic acid as is seen in numerous human phase 4 medications currently used to treat sepsis by reversing lactic acidosis.  These are far more interesting than the subject matter above.

As a blood bank director and attending critical care physician it would seem that the human model does not validate the information above in other posts but does have avenues which are applicable but in other contexts.

[TGJB]

Very interested in hearing more about the lactic acid part, given the milkshake-in-a-pill )alkalizing agent) that is in use now.

[docicu3]

I think I\'ll pass for the moment about describing phase 4 trials in humans that may lead to abuse in horses lest I set off a TGH brushfire of speculation and accusations. Maybe sometime in a more select forum these issues can be discussed

[girly]

docicu3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I\'ll pass for the moment about describing
> phase 4 trials in humans that may lead to abuse in
> horses lest I set off a TGH brushfire of
> speculation and accusations. Maybe sometime in a
> more select forum these issues can be discussed

Wise Choice-

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

If your goal in using the jargon was to indicate to the readers here that you are an \"expert\" in the field, you\'ve succeeded in establishing that many here will understand that you used the jargon to establish that you are an expert in the field.

I\'d ask you to dispense with the medical terms and describe what you have outlined as if you\'re trying to have George W. Bush understand it. We\'re smarter than he is, but that way we\'ll be sure to understand your points.

My first question to you is whether you are in any way involved in doping oversight/testing as it pertains to the Human Population?

Secondly, regardless of your oversight involvement, do you agree with Michel Audran, (considered an expert in the Human Subject doping field), that red blood cell transfusions can increase performance by 5 to 20% depending upon how how thick the doper wants to make the blood?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20070724-1656-cyc-tourdefrance.html

Thirdly, I\'d like to know even if you dispute Michel Audran whether you believe the conclusions pertaining to Human Doping are applicable to Equine Doping?

 docicu3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It\'s been awhile since I have posted but given my
> professional background on the topic I can\'t
> resist:
>
> 1)  Auto transfusion after \"preparing\" RBC\'s as
> probably Lasse Viren did in the 1970\'s requires
> only an extraction or phlebotomy \"treatment\" and
> replacement.  Donor Blood with all the
> complexities of minor and major antibody match
> makes working with the blood of another incredibly
> difficult and may even require
> immunosurpressives.

Assuming there are some antibody matching issues, how do you explain Alexandre Vinokourov\'s positive for donor blood in the Human field outlined in the attached link? He had a terrible spill and had stitches in both knees when he won a very difficult heat.

> 2) The laws of laminar flow and viscosity make
> polycythemia or providing additional red cell mass
> as a means of improving oxygen delivery very
> limited.

I take this to mean the freeway will be overly congested. Maybe even risking a traffic jam.

> Moreover the oxygen delivery equations provide
> very little advantage at hemoglobin\'s above ten
> grams with DO2 or oxygen delivery  

Michel Audran says performance improvement of upwards of 20% is possible. I\'m not sure what \"above 10 grams of hemoglobin\'s\" refers to. I\'m assuming it means introduction of 10 extra grams. Maybe thats all it takes to get 20% improvement in Human performance. Obviously a horse is much bigger and probably has a bigger demand for oxygen than a human. A demand that goes beyond mere body mass. Maybe the effective amount is 200 grams or more for a horse at 10 times our body mass, without factoring a horses lung capacity to take in oxygen. Do you perceive your statements and those of Michel Audran as being reconcilable and if not why?

 
> 3) There is no role for a discussion of \"plasma or
> other blood components\" given that oxygen is
> minimally dissolved (1.34 ml/gram of Hgb) but is
> carried very well in delivery by the tetra-mere or
> 4 binding site molecule heme.  It\'s the red cells
> that deliver the O2 predicated by the Ph of the
> tissues as acidic environments unload more O2.

The blood component I referred to was the oxygen carrying component. I do not believe I mentioned Plasma. But if you can link to show my error, I\'ll acknowledge it.


> Anaerobic and aerobic metabolism for human disease
> states are dependent on blood products to remain
> in a buffered state,or rapid removal of lactic
> acid as is seen in numerous human phase 4
> medications currently used to treat sepsis by
> reversing lactic acidosis.  These are far more
> interesting than the subject matter above.

Maybe, but I\'d just point out that many of us here understand that it is a ballet between oxygen carrying capacity and fatigue. I tend to believe the performance issues involving oxygen have more impact than those that consider them to be based in fatigue. The host here is a very smart man. He tends to stress that the fatigue part of the equation is predominate in getting more performance out of the subject. Part of my reason for believing Oxygen is the correct focus involves the impact of EPO on the game. That said, I acknowledge losing bets all the time, even when I\'m right. I understand those involved in what we are discussing apply themselves to the fatigue angle also. As I said, the host here is a sharp guy, even if a little Freudian, and hes asked you to elaborate. I assure you some here are all ears.

>
> As a blood bank director and attending critical
> care physician it would seem that the human model
> does not validate the information above in other
> posts but does have avenues which are applicable
> but in other contexts.

[docicu3]

CTC

Please find another person to present your personality disorder to, as your comments referencing my choice of words to express my opinion are not only rude and antagonistic but unveil your own problems with self esteem as often the prickly individual does such because they do not believe they are appreciated fully.

There is no reason to engage you further due to the fact that you clearly have no original thought based in science of your own relevant to the topic thus there is no reason to fuel your antagonism further.

[davidrex]

I feel somewhat compelled to apologize for Chuckles attack on a piece you wrote that was so completely over my head as to cease reading the piece midway /first paragraph.
Envision Chuckles as Orson Welles,and his oratory on what is wrong with racing as his War of The Worlds.
I feel you see yourself as more a scientist than Dr.,hence the complicated response to questions raised.
If you decide to re-enter the fray(hopefully),try using bedside manners to educate the inspired but uninformed.

                                    thanx

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Richie my only surprise is with that creative mind of yours you aren\'t all over the games top cheaters like whipped cream on a turd.

The beauty of the blood of course is that the cheaters can get optimum performance out of blood from the slowest stable pony.

richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sight:
>
> Sorry I gotta have a little fun with this.
>
> You asked Chuckto Star (Balto Star,a Glitterman
> product who TAP got to go 1-1/2
> miles on the turf, one of my favorite TAP runners)
> where the blood will come
> from.
>
> Isn\'t it common knowledge that the carcasses of
> all great deceased runners were
> exsanquinated before said carcasses were disposed
> of? And the blood taken from
> these great runners-- Forego, Slew, Affirmed,
> Alydar, the Bid, etc-- was frozen?
> And that this \"Champion Blood\" could be mass
> (re)produced using recombinant DNA
> technology?
>
> Hell I wouldn\'t be surprised if TAP, not satisfied
> to have a Belmont runner who
> had Belmont winners on BOTH SIDES of her immediate
> pedigree, gave her a
> transfusion of a couple of pints of Secretariat\'s
> blood, just to make sure she
> got the distance.
>
> I\'m getting goose bumps thinking that the blood of
> some of the great geldings
> of our time-- like Forego-- raced into the future,
> even though a cruel turn of
> the knife prevented us from ever seeing any
> produce from this game champion.
>
> Michael Crichton meets Dick Francis and they drive
> off in the White Mercedes.
> Who do you like in the first race at Jurarlington
> Park?

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First off, I have never conceded that Plech has
> the best horseflesh.
>
>
>
> Chuck,
>
> With the exception of the Sheikh, who doesn\'t race
> here that much,it is not even close. A roster of
> TAP runners shows strong coverage in EVERY
> division dirt/ turf, fillies/ mares/ colts and
> it\'s by design, not coincidence.Believe me there
> is no barn, even in the same area of code when it
> comes to pure stock.Interesting you did not
> identify the outfit YOU feel has better stock.

I don\'t bet Turf, but without full immersion in that surface, my impression is that Plech is not a top notch turf trainer. Today he has three horses going. All on Turf. His juveniles did not fair well at the Spa. Today 2 of them compete in the same turf race.

I also don\'t believe Plech is a top notch Poly trainer. Once again that is a general impression, because I don\'t Follow Poly.

Baffert has good horses. McGaughey has good horses, albeit in smaller numbers. Tagg is getting good horses. Mott, Frankel, Asmussen, McLaughlin all have good horses.

What Plech has is a bigger barn. But bigger does not mean better, unless you\'re a woman with that look in your eye.

 
> I am not the least bit surprised that Lawyer Ron,
> a \"hard hitter\", even when Holthius had him at 3,
> has developed as a 4yr old.It\'s not like LR was a
> bum that has been Oscarized by TAP,at least not
> imo. Actually at three, I did not like this horse
> that much at the 1 and 1/4 distance and will be
> looking to take a shot against him depending on
> how they line up in the BC classic.
>
>

Ron was a precocious 2YO improved at 3 and exploded off the chart at 4. There was no room for that type of improvement. His previous trainer was not the hack intimated by those trying to defend Lawyer Ron\'s improvement. Ron is now the fastest horse in the history of horseracing. His recovery off the Whitney was inexplicable.

[miff]

Chuck,

I expected a better attempt than that.ALL the trainers combined(that you mentioned) would maybe come close in quality and accomplishment to Tap\'s  present barn.Shug,Tagg, Mc Laughlin,compared to the TAP string, you are pulling my leg.

Forgetting about where they finished, the guy started 5 in the derby alone, a testament to the depth and quality of his barn, not his training ability.

TAP now sits with AGS,RTR,LAWYER RON,WAIT A WHILE to name a few,and many other graded stakes winners in baby and other divisions, dirt and grass. Again, that does not mean he is the best horseman, but unquestionably has the best stock, by far.


Mike

[Boscar Obarra]

Yeah, but if you use terminology that you know 99% of your readers will not understand, is that communication or something else?

[docicu3]

Actually the terminology provides precise meaning and is really not all that complex.  If you want to talk the subject matter a basic understanding of the verbage is necessary.

Racing is no different as words like gelding and mud caulks require a little work to understand.

The words in medicine like the concepts are actually pretty simplistic but precise.  
Separating oxygen delivery (or how much oxygen is available for the tissues of a horse to use) as an alleged performance enhancement from the issues of acidemia (or too much hydrogen(lactic acid) in the blood which the horses and human\'s brain(stem) translates as \"breathe faster and deeper\" thus impacting the horses ability to run as you can only breathe so fast (ventilatory maximum which when exceeded causes that hydrogen to accumulate in the blood and tissues which is translated to the horses brain as \"stop running and you\'ll need to breathe less\"

Thus there are two places to change the equation of performance leaving one with the only relevant question.  Do I need more oxygen or less acid as a means to improve performance and run faster longer.  Answer: Less Acid(which is another way of saying more alkaline or \"milk shake like\"

The experimental meds I am talking about work on the \"remove the acid faster\" or \"stop the acid from accumulating\" part of the equation. Oxygen is manipulatable to some extent but is not where gains can be seen.   Stop the horse from accumulating acid in his blood so he doesn\'t have to waste energy breathing fast to stop the pain and you allow the horse to deliver what it is capable of for a longer period.  It doesn\'t make it run faster but use his God given talent longer.

This whole discussion can be summarized as aerobic VS anaerobic.  Nothing more complex than that.  With oxygen and without excess acid!!!

This sounds like Mr Rodger\'s visits horse racing but I am trying people, and it reads to me like I am not doing the subject justice.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Appreciate the attempt to speak in laymans terms. I have to run but will review your post carefully when I return.

If the primary focus is acid, we still have the Tour de France oxygen implications. We also know the broncho dialators involve increasing oxygen.

Regarding the acid focus, I thought the following article might pique some curiosity. It says that lactic acid really isn\'t lactic acid at all. In fact it seems to support Stillinger and Oscar B.:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?ex=1305432000&en=2778e99d7eab85a6&ei=5090


-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually the terminology provides precise meaning
> and is really not all that complex.  If you want
> to talk the subject matter a basic understanding
> of the verbage is necessary.
>
> Racing is no different as words like gelding and
> mud caulks require a little work to understand.
>
> The words in medicine like the concepts are
> actually pretty simplistic but precise.  
> Separating oxygen delivery (or how much oxygen is
> available for the tissues of a horse to use) as an
> alleged performance enhancement from the issues of
> acidemia (or too much hydrogen(lactic acid) in the
> blood which the horses and human\'s brain(stem)
> translates as \"breathe faster and deeper\" thus
> impacting the horses ability to run as you can
> only breathe so fast (ventilatory maximum which
> when exceeded causes that hydrogen to accumulate
> in the blood and tissues which is translated to
> the horses brain as \"stop running and you\'ll need
> to breathe less\"
>
> Thus there are two places to change the equation
> of performance leaving one with the only relevant
> question.  Do I need more oxygen or less acid as a
> means to improve performance and run faster
> longer.  Answer: Less Acid(which is another way of
> saying more alkaline or \"milk shake like\"
>
> The experimental meds I am talking about work on
> the \"remove the acid faster\" or \"stop the acid
> from accumulating\" part of the equation. Oxygen is
> manipulatable to some extent but is not where
> gains can be seen.   Stop the horse from
> accumulating acid in his blood so he doesn\'t have
> to waste energy breathing fast to stop the pain
> and you allow the horse to deliver what it is
> capable of for a longer period.  It doesn\'t make
> it run faster but use his God given talent
> longer.
>
> This whole discussion can be summarized as aerobic
> VS anaerobic.  Nothing more complex than that.
> With oxygen and without excess acid!!!
>
> This sounds like Mr Rodger\'s visits horse racing
> but I am trying people, and it reads to me like I
> am not doing the subject justice.