Author Topic: rag to riches hurt - out?  (Read 1162 times)

Chuckles_the_Clown2

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2007, 06:40:53 AM »
richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuckamy Road:
>
> Give K-Mac credit, he\'s a smart enough horseman to
> realize that RTR, with
> her trip to New Bolton and her missed workouts
> over the summer, may have been
> vulnerable, especially carrying 7 extra pounds. He
> made the same sort of
> judgment that TAP made in entering RTR in the
> Belmont Stakes, a judgment based
> as much on the vulnerability of the competition as
> anything else.

I\'ll acquiesce between the Belmont Stakes and Gazelle that Rags spiked two fevers and balked in a work. However she had the epitome of the Plech Allday preparation. She came into the race cranked.

> Enough with the \"faster than given credit for\"
> line. You\'ve already shouted it
> from the mountaintop. The board has already
> discussed the uncertainty built into
> a number assigned to the only 1-1/2 mile race on
> the card, the only race of the
> day when the clubhouse turn was raced over.

Maybe, but the difference is that I not only was the first one to contest that number, I predicted how her subsequent races vs her division would go and laid out the figure she would run post Belmont Stakes while continuing to hear glowing reports of Rags separation from her crop.

> In an article wrapping up the Saratoga meet titled
> \"What a Difference Two
> Decades Makes\", Steve Crist noted that the breed
> was far from improving. Set
> against this stark reality, you have a filly sired
> by a Belmont winner and out
> of a mare who produced a Belmont winner. Said
> filly won, in addition to the
> Belmont Stakes,3 other Grade 1 stakes against her
> own gender,dominating all 3
> races.Call it what you want-- class, quality,
> superiority-- if you love Racing
> you hope that if Racing survives and flourishes as
> something more than a
> carnival sideshow, this filly becomes a foundation
> for champions in many
> generations.

Generational foundation for champions? Thats hard to say. I really didn\'t think much of Jazil\'s Belmont either. I really believe the connection is due to a very bizarre and statistically impropable quirk of fate. Still the remote thing does happen every now and then. When it does you don\'t assign too much significance to it. Ok, Rags mare threw two of the weakest Belmont winners ever. There, are you happy now?

 
>
> Not only did her Belmont win reaffirm her
> pedigree, it also reaffirmed a lesson
> we have all learned about racing-- that when any
> animal, no matter how good, is
> pitched into a tough spot (ie, at an extended
> distance, a filly against colts,
> against classier competition) said animal may win
> the day but will have to pay
> the price in the future. I think the terminology
> on the other board is \"knock
> out race\". On that level, even with the time off
> RTR was given,
> Saturday\'s result was not shocking.

Thats the difference Richie. There are those here calling the Belmont a knock out race. I am stating vehemently that it was representative with the effort Rags just ran and representative with her earlier efforts too. Though I do have some issues with those earlier efforts.

>
> I think even Jerry Brown, Len Friedman and Barry
> Irwin could agree that RTR is
> a brilliant specimen, though Len and Jerry
> probably wouldn\'t agree as to how
> fast she really was. Given a consensus such as
> this, your subtle attempts to
> discredit this runner create the possibility that
> you will have credibility
> problems on the level of a certain current
> administration.

I don\'t follow that. I can\'t discredit Rags. All I did was point out her Belmont was not what it appeared and that she would not go on to great wins post Belmont. Thats not me discrediting her. Thats her discrediting herself.

> Although most of us have shamefully had to adjust
> our standards for \"Greatness\"
> in thoroughbreds, there should be no shame in
> acknowledging greatness when we
> encounter it. Based on her five race, six month
> campaign which culminated on
> June 9th, I have no problem recommending RTR to
> the Greatness Committee for
> consideration.

She\'ll need to come back and prevail against handicap mares at a minimum to get on the greatness ballot.

> Need sleep now. An early tee time Tuesday, and
> Robert Trent Jones is waiting in
> NJ to kick my tush.
>

richiebee

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2007, 07:05:46 AM »
Chuck:

Thank you for a detailed and well reasoned response. My only comment is that
my opinion is that RTR has run her last race; I believe her value has already
been established.

Quirky is an interesting word with regards to Better than Honour\'s having thrown
Belmont winners (weak or not) in consecutive years, given the past history of
triple crown race winning siblings (no history). It is a strange situation
indeed, that as an unprecedented occurrence, it will be hard to evaluate BTH\'s
back to back Belmont winner producing double in the scheme of things.

I guess it is just sentimental on my part to think that I may have seen 2
runners who belong to a family which may or may not become legendary. This is
something that will be determined long after I hang up the binoculars.

RICH

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2007, 07:38:00 AM »
and besides, put your finger over Rags\' last race prior to the Gazelle, and what you have is a horse who\'s numbers were equal to LP at the weights. The negative number, the issues since, and I really can\'t see how anyone could bet Rags Saturday at all, especially considering TAP\'s last couple weeks. I am truly sorry that she is missing the BC Distaff too.

miff

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2007, 08:38:57 AM »
\"Just so folks are clear, Rags to Riches had never faced Lear\'s Princess until her career ending defeat. Lear\'s Princess IS in a differenet league from Raqs to Riches, that league is the league of horses that Rags to Riches did not beat\"


Chuck,

...not a great point, Lears Princess went into that race as a dirt maiden.


Mike
miff

Silver Charm

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2007, 09:09:15 AM »
Ritchie wrote,

>This is something that will be determined long after I hang up the binoculars.

There were 7,000 people at Belmont on Saturday and Gulfstream is an indoor wagering outlet. Unless you need binoculars to watch your TV or look at your computer you can hang those up for good just like Rags to Riches will.....

marcus

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2007, 10:35:36 AM »
... Lord Chuckles of Clown - Does have a certain ring to it I must admit IMO . Is there a consensus on whether the Filly should have run Saturday - I\'m guessing yes .

The \'Binoc stuff is \"A\" material , I\'d say go with that - it actually might be helpful using them  backwards to see that trakus stuff on the screen .  

Personally I wasn\'t concerned about the trainers record at all when considering the race . Even if the stats are through the roof IMO - you still know ( for various reasons ) that the potential is strong now for issues with R2R ...
marcus

fkach

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2007, 11:46:36 AM »
This is one reason why I hate early retirements. If she doesn\'t make it back 100% she won\'t have a chance to prove how special she was.

IMHO, anyone that doesn\'t appreciate how special this filly was lacks the handicapping sophistication to make such judgments. I know that\'s about as arrogant a statement as anyone can make, but for the life of me I can\'t see how a debated figure for the Belmont translates into anything less than a spectacular performance anyway.

It was RTR that lost a ton of ground to Curlin, wouldn\'t let him get by when she got hooked, and finished in spectacular racehorse time for a 12F race on the dirt no matter what the early fractions. The top two were well clear of the rest of the field and it was another large gap to 4th. Those were not garbage can 3YO colts of the type that most fillies beat when it happens. They were and still are solid Grade 1 3YO colts.

Before that she was totally dominant over fillies her own age despite losing tons of ground on occasion and while earning superior figures for a 3YO filly at that time of year with her level of seasoning.  

Was she Ruffian?

Of course not. No one is Ruffian.

However, in her brief career to date she was/is one of the most promising 3YO fillies I\'ve ever seen. Anyone that thinks she was 100% Saturday in defeat can\'t possibly know much about the difficulty of preparing a horse for a high quality stakes off a layoff, especially when there were repeated training interruptions, multiple fevers, and as Barry suggested she didn\'t look very good through the stretch while remaining game etc...

Sorry for the rant.

Flighted Iron

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2007, 11:48:06 AM »
Some interesting points made here. Just 1 question though. How many horses
have actually spoke to you? In English?

  Racehorses are athletes and individuals. I think it\'s unfair to say all
athletes can break a bone in mid-performance and continue without hesitation.

Flighted Iron

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2007, 12:03:01 PM »
Personal Ensign, the undefeated champion mare owned by the Phipps family in the 1980s, was away from the races for almost a year after fracturing a hind pastern in the fall of her 2-year-old season. All she did was win the final 11 races of her career, seven of which were Grade 1 stakes.

\"I would say this is something she can come back 110 percent from,\" Pletcher said Monday morning. \"I don\'t know what Personal Ensign\'s fracture was like, but I\'m sure this one is less significant than that one.\"

It seems there is hope to be had.

Street Sense

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2007, 12:51:23 PM »
Greatness?  Your standards are indeed quite low.  She was very nice.  Unfortunately, Todd & Co. decided to run her with a problem instead of giving her the time off she needed.  Fortunately, they didn\'t injure her worse than she was.

Street Sense

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2007, 01:01:38 PM »
Flighted Iron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some interesting points made here. Just 1 question
> though. How many horses
> have actually spoke to you? In English?
>
>   Racehorses are athletes and individuals. I think
> it\'s unfair to say all
> athletes can break a bone in mid-performance and
> continue without hesitation.

She didn\'t break a bone in mid-performance.  The race Saturday pushed forward her previous problem to a state where she can\'t be raced now without significant risk of a catastrophic breakdown.

They tried to get her through just two more races.  Didn\'t work out.

miff

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2007, 01:15:58 PM »
\"Greatness? Your standards are indeed quite low. She was very nice. Unfortunately, Todd & Co. decided to run her with a problem instead of giving her the time off she needed. Fortunately, they didn\'t injure her worse than she was\"



Street,

Agree on the greatness part, but you must kidding that TAP/Tabor allowed RTR to race with a \"known\" problem going in.


Mike
miff

magicnight

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2007, 01:30:06 PM »
SS

\"She didn\'t break a bone in mid-performance. The race Saturday pushed forward her previous problem to a state where she can\'t be raced now without significant risk of a catastrophic breakdown.\"

And you know this for a fact ... how???

Bob

Flighted Iron

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2007, 01:53:28 PM »
How do you know the fracture didn\'t occur during the race?

Flighted Iron

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Re: A League of Her Own
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2007, 02:51:47 PM »
Street(NON)Sense,


  To review, Rags to Riches suffered a fever that forced her to miss the Coaching Club American Oaks. A day after that race, Rags to Riches was pulled up less than a furlong into a five-furlong workout at Belmont. She spent several days at the New Bolton Center in Pennsylvania, where she underwent a battery of tests that showed nothing amiss. But Rags to Riches missed too much training time to make the Alabama.
 
  On your behalf,I\'d like to call New Bolton and inform all the professionals
(with their years of education,experience and access to technology)that they
just missed this problem.My next call will be to Pletcher/Tabor telling them
the jig is up and you\'re on to them.