Doc Outs Dutrow Live today on ATRAB link below

[docicu3]

Today Doc Allday essentially called out Rick Dutrow on live radio this afternoon for among other racing felonies, orchestrating a conspiracy to defraud the public with the care and training of Wild Desert prior to the running of the 2005 Queens Plate at Woodbine.

The detail and candor Allday exhibited during a 5-10 minute stream of consciousness
confessional will probably lead to additional inquiry if not sanctions about a series of fraudulent activities that led to racing and societal crimes that beg the question of possible federal charges for fraud in Mr Dutrow\'s future.  The only apparent controversy would be whether Canada or the US would have jurisdiction over these events to mislead the betting public about 1) Fraudulent workouts 2) The horse meeting criteria to compete in the Queens Plate since the necessary public workout at Monmouth was bogus thus placing the result of Woodbine\'s Crown Jewel in doubt.

To hear Allday live go to ATR and listen to the last 10 minutes of the archives for Nov 2.  It is worth the listen

[Kasept]

It really should not be missed...

LINK: http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/option,com_events/task,view_detail/agid,101/year,2007/month,11/day,02/Itemid,35/

(Hour 1.. Let it load and once loaded, you can then jump forward three-quaters of the way in...)

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Steve Allday questioning the bona fides of a trainer is ludicrous. Especially a trainer he has \"doctored\" for.

Its too comical to even believe.

First off take whatever Allday says and file it where it belongs. If there is Any doubt that is in the trash can.

If the most likely to be banned Vet in Thoroughbred Racing is genuinely disclosing a subversive thing about Dutrow there is more to the story than the Quack Allday\'s revelation. Something much more akin to self interest and saving one\'s own skin.

If you want to save racing which of the two is more deserving of a permanent ban? Dick Dutrow or Steve Allday?

docicu3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Today Doc Allday essentially called out Rick
> Dutrow on live radio this afternoon for among
> other racing felonies, orchestrating a conspiracy
> to defraud the public with the care and training
> of Indian Flower prior to the running of the 2005
> Queens Plate at Woodbine.
>
> The detail and candor Allday exhibited during a
> 5-10 minute stream of consciousness
> confessional will probably lead to additional
> inquiry if not sanctions about a series of
> fraudulent activities that led to racing and
> societal crimes that beg the question of possible
> federal charges for fraud in Mr Dutrow\'s future.
> The only apparent controversy would be whether
> Canada or the US would have jurisdiction over
> these events to mislead the betting public about
> 1) Fraudulent workouts 2) The horse meeting
> criteria to compete in the Queens Plate since the
> necessary public workout at Monmouth was bogus
> thus placing the result of Woodbine\'s Crown Jewel
> in doubt.
>
> To hear Allday live go to ATR and listen to the
> last 10 minutes of the archives for Nov 2.  It is
> worth the listen

[docicu3]

Go ahead CTC lay it out there so subsequent readers will know what your talking about

[hooper]

Chuckles,
I have had horses treated by Allday privately and in partnerships. He is the best x-ray /radiograph/lameness vet in the country in my opinion. Have never seen what you are insinuating on one of my bills or in practice. What is it you think he is doing? Be specific. I\'ll ask him.
Hooper

[richiebee]

Actually, Steve, anyone who \"jumps forward\" does themselves a disservice--the
entire hour was a very informative listen. I listened with special interest as
New York Post racing reporter John DaSilva opined that there would be no racing
at New York tracks as of January 1, 2008.

I did not realize that the horses of Dan Borislow, who owned Wild Desert, had
been excluded from NYRA tracks, which provides at least one reason why Wild
Desert could not have worked as Wild Desert while stabled at Aqueduct. Looks
like Team Dutrow outsmarted both the clockers and the stall man at Aqueduct.
And I note with interest in Sunday\'s DRF that the Dutrow horses will be running
in J- Rod\'s name as RD himself is apparently serving days once again.

Listening to the call from \"Steve from Kentucky\" it is quite apparent that
Dutrow and Allday did not have an amicable parting.

RD quite a versatile trainer, showing that he can cheat with and without drugs.
His brother AD has been getting incredible results up and down the East Coast
for the past few years. Dutrow family defenders have stated that part of their
success is attributable to the fact that they have a blacksmith who works for
them exclusively.

That\'s one hell of a farrier.

[miff]

Richiebee wrote:

\"RD quite a versatile trainer, showing that he can cheat with and without drugs.
His brother AD has been getting incredible results up and down the East Coast
for the past few years. Dutrow family defenders have stated that part of their
success is attributable to the fact that they have a blacksmith who works for
them exclusively.

That\'s one hell of a farrier\"


Bee,

Team Tricky and bro are amazing in their ability to take a horse and move them forward. Along with Kentucky Bruce,they remain peerless in NY. The conspiracy idiots are noticeably silent re the White Mercedes, Allday/Pletcher/Frankel/Dutrow esp after the BC results.The BC featured wins by horses trained by suspects Dutrow, Pletcher, Frankel, Asmussen, Zito(yes,ahem, someone here suggested that Nick, 12% trainer, juices them, esp in Kentucky)I\'m shocked that the conspiracy idiots aren\'t suggesting that Baffy is now sending out his runners loaded up.


Re Allday, Hooper made a posting here that I have heard several trainers confirm,i.e. Alldays vet skills in special areas particularly \"backs/behinds\"(one was actually Tricky)


Mike

[cubfan0316]

if anybody doesnt beleive this explain how mr. d canclaim a horse and 4 days later runs his fastest race?

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Hooper,

Regarding Allday\'s ability to discern whats going on with a horse I would just point out Rags to Riches recent balking and the fact they raced her nevertheless and that post race an injury manifested itself. Allday ostensibly couldn\'t determine why she was spiking occasional fevers and balking so he sent her to New Bolton. They couldn\'t come up with a reason either. Horses can\'t talk and even if they could most of these guys address something other than the infirmity itself anyway, Allday included.

I\'m delighted you\'re in a position to ask Mr. Allday some questions. I have a host of them. The trick will be asking them tactfully enough to get some kind of usable response from him. Obviously you can\'t interrogate him, but I\'d begin something like this.

\"Steve, you\'ve made quite a name for yourself with Pletcher, Frankel and Dutrow, are you still treating horses for them?\"

(Thats a bait question Hooper, what he says isn\'t really relevant to where we want to go, but you have to win his confidence and stroking his ample ego some is not a bad way to start.)

If perchance he volunteers his fallouts with the above mentioned trainers, followup some to try to determine why they fell out. Maybe inquire if he knows who is treating for them now and what his opinion of that vet is.

Then ask when he Began treating for Pletcher. This is a key question that this board has wanted to pin the answer down to for years. FYI, Allday treated for Patrick Byrne in 1997. The year Countess Diana and Favorite Trick ran off with Juvenile Championships. Ask him how his relationship with Pletcher developed. Who approached who and what year was their team established. My guess is if he answers honestly he will state 2000, maybe 1999. 2000 is the year Pletcher had his first Derby Starter, actually his first 4 Derby starters. When it rains it pours. (FYI Pletchers runners beginning in 2000 started to throw in an abundance of exceptional efforts. Good skeletal review could be a reason. Something else could be the reason too.)

Ask Allday if he ever experimented with EPO. Whatever he answers ask him if he remembers the year (2002) when Left Bank, Freedom\'s Daughter and Warners all passed away within a week or two of each other. Then look him in the eye and ask him if he treated those horses with EPO. Who knows, we may get a Doc Harthill confessional moment, but I don\'t expect him to come clean. Whats important though is that he\'ll know that you know and you\'ll detect his evasion. Then ask him what Freedom\'s Daughter and Warners died from? What the autopsies concluded. (They were private autopsies of course and they were inconclusive.) Lastly ask him if Those horses deaths were consistent symptomatically with exposure to any of the various forms of EPO.

Below are two posts pertaining to this matter. It might be a good idea to read them for background before broaching the issue.

http://www.thorograph.com/phorum/read.php?1,36897,36897#msg-36897

http://www.thorograph.com/phorum/read.php?1,36987,36987#msg-36987

Ask Allday next if he has any non-EPO related experience with increasing the Red Blood Cell count in horses and whether he believes blood-packing with a horses own blood or a donor horses blood is viable. (The Tour de France oversight committee does.) Ask him if thoroughbred racing currently tests for blood packing and whether they should so test.

Lastly ask a question for Jerry and Docicu, ask what ways race induced lactic acid can be neutralized or mitigated by a Vet. We know of milkshakes and carbonate pills. Ask him what other ways to reduce lactic acid are viable.

If he hasn\'t pounded a quick retreat...tell him someone else put you up to the questions and that you still want him to treat your horses. But then tell him this fella wants the chance to interview him on At the Races for a half hour and will he appear to address substance abuse in Thoroughbred horse racing with him? I\'m sure we can get the time allocated by the hosts of the program.

Thats a start

Theres another occasional poster here who at times has had the chance to contribute by asking Pletcher similar questions. He balks as badly as Rags to Riches in virus aborted workout though. When all they can see are dollars, old men sometimes lack courage. When one lacks integrity though, things generally don\'t work out well. See Lawyer Ron and Tasha\'s Miracle.

CtC  

d.hooper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuckles,
> I have had horses treated by Allday privately and
> in partnerships. He is the best x-ray
> /radiograph/lameness vet in the country in my
> opinion. Have never seen what you are insinuating
> on one of my bills or in practice. What is it you
> think he is doing? Be specific. I\'ll ask him.
> Hooper

[hooper]

Chuckles,I stopped counting at question 10. This link may get you more timely responses.
http://www.lubrisyn.com/mediaroom/interview.aspx

[sighthound]

The feeling apparently persists in some people\'s minds that there is some type of a magic shot or drug vets can give that suddenly make a horse \"move up\".

Well, we test for drugs that could do that:  cocaine, caffeine, amphetamines, etc. and have been doing so for some time.

A number of the BC horses were tested for milkshaking and EPO before the event.  Yes, testing for milkshaking before the event doesn\'t do anything other than establish a baseline (which is pretty tight physiologically, anyway) - but can be used to compare to the after-race testing for specific horses.

There is alot of stuff vets can give, and trainers can do, both legal and illegal, but frankly that\'s a very difficult task when one is charged to do it, to get an amazing sudden moveup.  

After all, that\'s the whole point of training - to make a horse optimize their capabilities.  To either run faster, or run fast longer.

There are quite a few legal things one can do - for example, inject a sore hock with steroid and other agents, and relieve pain and inflammation - that can make a horse perform to a much higher level.

It\'s done all the time in the claiming ranks (and at the grade one level).  

One claiming trainer doesn\'t have alot of money and thus doesn\'t do any care for the sore hock. They run the horse, take a big rest until the lameness subsides, then run him again at the same level.  

The horse is claimed into a barn who has better vet care and the money to provide better care - amazing moveup accomplished, the horse runs back at a higher level and wins, and stays at that higher level.

Illegal moveup trainer?  No, better horseman, better vet care.

But another trainer, rather than treating the joint with more expensive legal substances, simply injects a cheaper painkiller into the joint to effect the amazing moveup.  Illegal (and dangerous to the horse and jockey)  Same moveup, different cause.

One can also inject cobra venom to block a sore joint.  Same result, but also illegal.

One thing that looking at sheet numbers for \"evidence\" of drug abuse does is to deny the obvious - the horse is a living animal, and some trainers are markedly better horsemen than others.

I\'ve seen people here use big sheet number moveups as justification for, \"that trainer is using something\" when the trainer is one of suspicion - while totally ignoring big sheet number moveups obtainable by \"thought to be clean\" trainers that simply know how to train and care for a horse over time.

That\'s the downside of trying to diagnose specific medical interventions off handicapping sheets.
 
To come to a conclusion and then go backwards trying to justify it - while ignoring any information that doesn\'t fit - and while using a data source (handicapping sheets) that is already subjectively interpretive of a performance (as horses are living creatures) is RIDICULOUS and illogical in my mind.

At best that can identify trainers that reliably get horses to increase performance.

A measured moveup by itself cannot possibly give cause for that.

And you can\'t ignore the trainers that can do the same thing legally and regularly, and only talk about the trainers you want to target.

The chronic assumption that any such moveup is due to \"illegal drugs\" - and not anything else - is silly.

  >>>Lastly ask a question for Jerry and Docicu, ask what ways race induced >>>lactic acid can be neutralized or mitigated by a Vet. We know of milkshakes >>>and carbonate pills. Ask him what other ways to reduce lactic acid are >>viable.

You do realize that delaying lactic acid buildup in a horse (or any other species) only possibly gets a small persistence in endurance at best, don\'t you?  No speed increase.  And that \"possibly\" is a big, real deal, as it\'s not a predictable reponse?

Same with EPO?

You do realize that changing a horses nutrition can do very the same thing, and elicit the very same type of response, over 6 weeks?  
 
I\'ve seen trainers elicit big moveups in horses by doing that - good husbandry.

It is clear to me that many discussing this subject are strictly handicappers, with no horse experience.
 
They are not familiar with what veterinary interventions are being done to horses normally, what is being done illegally, but most importantly what any specific intervention could at best accomplish.

[miff]

Sight,

Well spoken, I did not come up with the term \"conspiracy idiots\" without regard for much of what you posted.

Mike

[TGJB]

Sight-- I disagree with much of this, but I want to make one specific point, which I have made several times.

Even if that is what they were doing (which I doubt), out of competion CO2 tests (\"milkshakes\") to establish a baseline would only be relevant if a positive resulted if a horse came back later over the baseline. Which is not the case.

Again (and again and again)-- the amount of CO2 that occurs naturally in a horse is somewhere between 28 and 31, tops. The threshold level for a positive is 37 to 39, depending on the state. In other words, if they established a baseline of 30 and the horse came back 35 after the BC, a) he was drugged, and b) the trainer will not be sanctioned. Most importantly, c) nothing will be announced.

I want to clarify something I said in an earlier post on this subject. The act of administering alkalyzing agents is illegal, regardless of the level. Because of the industry wanting to stay out of court, they have made it De Facto legal. But the many (and I mean many) doing it are still breaking the rules.

Until the CO2 test results are published, none of this will change.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

I\'m certain the stats men will correct me if I\'m wrong but I believe Lawyer Ron\'s first start under Plech was the 2006 Breeders Cup Flop.

Plech put him away brought him back this year and immediately had him hitting at his old performance levels. As an older long established horse he went from occasionaly negative 1\'s to:

-2
-6
-4.2 (I think the number should be faster)
-3.2 (Another I think should be about a point faster)

Even taking these numbers as gospel, its clear Lawyer Ron suddenly freaked. If you do take these numbers as gospel he was on a slight regressive curve and his second Breeders Cup Classic Flop maybe wasnt such a shock.

However what was a shock is how he jumped 10 plus lengths faster (5 TGraph points) in two races at the Spa. That was absurd.

I\'ve heard it all. \"Plech has the best horses and help...he\'s the best their ever was. His Vet is the Naz....he has an exclusive blacksmith...They know just where to inject lubrisyn...EPO can\'t do that much...Blood packing is a theory\" What these folks talking this way dont look at are the efforts and the figure chronology. If they did, they\'d understand why Plech fairs well in the Graded Stakes and they might have an inclination as to why his Breeders Cup record is not as spectacular. sighthound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The feeling apparently persists in some people\'s
> minds that there is some type of a magic shot or
> drug vets can give that suddenly make a horse
> \"move up\".
>
> Well, we test for drugs that could do that:
> cocaine, caffeine, amphetamines, etc. and have
> been doing so for some time.
>
> A number of the BC horses were tested for
> milkshaking and EPO before the event.  Yes,
> testing for milkshaking before the event doesn\'t
> do anything other than establish a baseline (which
> is pretty tight physiologically, anyway) - but can
> be used to compare to the after-race testing for
> specific horses.
>
> There is alot of stuff vets can give, and trainers
> can do, both legal and illegal, but frankly that\'s
> a very difficult task when one is charged to do
> it, to get an amazing sudden moveup.  
>
> After all, that\'s the whole point of training - to
> make a horse optimize their capabilities.  To
> either run faster, or run fast longer.
>
> There are quite a few legal things one can do -
> for example, inject a sore hock with steroid and
> other agents, and relieve pain and inflammation -
> that can make a horse perform to a much higher
> level.
>
> It\'s done all the time in the claiming ranks (and
> at the grade one level).  
>
> One claiming trainer doesn\'t have alot of money
> and thus doesn\'t do any care for the sore hock.
> They run the horse, take a big rest until the
> lameness subsides, then run him again at the same
> level.  
>
> The horse is claimed into a barn who has better
> vet care and the money to provide better care -
> amazing moveup accomplished, the horse runs back
> at a higher level and wins, and stays at that
> higher level.
>
> Illegal moveup trainer?  No, better horseman,
> better vet care.
>
> But another trainer, rather than treating the
> joint with more expensive legal substances, simply
> injects a cheaper painkiller into the joint to
> effect the amazing moveup.  Illegal (and dangerous
> to the horse and jockey)  Same moveup, different
> cause.
>
> One can also inject cobra venom to block a sore
> joint.  Same result, but also illegal.
>
> One thing that looking at sheet numbers for
> \"evidence\" of drug abuse does is to deny the
> obvious - the horse is a living animal, and some
> trainers are markedly better horsemen than
> others.
>
> I\'ve seen people here use big sheet number moveups
> as justification for, \"that trainer is using
> something\" when the trainer is one of suspicion -
> while totally ignoring big sheet number moveups
> obtainable by \"thought to be clean\" trainers that
> simply know how to train and care for a horse over
> time.
>
> That\'s the downside of trying to diagnose specific
> medical interventions off handicapping sheets.
>  
> To come to a conclusion and then go backwards
> trying to justify it - while ignoring any
> information that doesn\'t fit - and while using a
> data source (handicapping sheets) that is already
> subjectively interpretive of a performance (as
> horses are living creatures) is RIDICULOUS and
> illogical in my mind.
>
> At best that can identify trainers that reliably
> get horses to increase performance.
>
> A measured moveup by itself cannot possibly give
> cause for that.
>
> And you can\'t ignore the trainers that can do the
> same thing legally and regularly, and only talk
> about the trainers you want to target.
>
> The chronic assumption that any such moveup is due
> to \"illegal drugs\" - and not anything else - is
> silly.
>
>   >>>Lastly ask a question for Jerry and Docicu,
> ask what ways race induced >>>lactic acid can be
> neutralized or mitigated by a Vet. We know of
> milkshakes >>>and carbonate pills. Ask him what
> other ways to reduce lactic acid are >>viable.
>
> You do realize that delaying lactic acid buildup
> in a horse (or any other species) only possibly
> gets a small persistence in endurance at best,
> don\'t you?  No speed increase.  And that
> \"possibly\" is a big, real deal, as it\'s not a
> predictable reponse?
>
> Same with EPO?
>
> You do realize that changing a horses nutrition
> can do very the same thing, and elicit the very
> same type of response, over 6 weeks?  
>  
> I\'ve seen trainers elicit big moveups in horses by
> doing that - good husbandry.
>
> It is clear to me that many discussing this
> subject are strictly handicappers, with no horse
> experience.
>  
> They are not familiar with what veterinary
> interventions are being done to horses normally,
> what is being done illegally, but most importantly
> what any specific intervention could at best
> accomplish.

[miff]

Poor Chuck, drank too much Kool Aide. What was LR choppped liver when Holthius had him at 3? Enough about TAP who\'s stable is probably achieving at par, all things considered.


Based on your inane theory what possibly could account for Midnight Lute running a pair of neg 7\'s no less. Don\'t tell me it was the 3 epi/throat operations either.Baffy\'s now a move up guy?

Mike