Plecher is OUT

[sighthound]

TGJB Wrote:
> As I have mentioned before, the dialogue we have
> had with Kentucky has been hilarious (and
> continued in that vein)-- and in response to what
> someone said here, there is more than a question
> as to whether they have been testing in Kentucky.
> I know for a fact there have been stretches of
> time where they have not. And that appears to be
> one of the reasons they are fighting not to
> release the data to me.

I think you are exactly right in that presumption.

[smalltimer]

richiebee,
Many thanks for the accolades.  I\'ve stood on the grassy knoll as well.

I\'ll try to be as concise as possible, to avoid using more characters than are allowed in this forum.

Feel free to refer to me in any cute name you prefer. My suggestion is - don\'t read my lengthy posts if you\'re offended by their wordage.

The need for your approval/disapproval fails to sway me either way.    

If you\'d care to RE-READ my initial post on this topic, I wrote John Kimmel gave up the vet practice, not Neil Pessin, okie dokie?  So richiebee, if you wanna criticize, either get your facts straight or get your vision checked.

In regards to Bill Mott, who was his most successful animal of all time, and exactly how sterile was that animal?  Probably a genetic defect.

Regarding synthetic.  It makes no diff to me what the surface(s) are yesterday, tomorrow or 15 years from now.  I can play all of them and not whine about it.

(I need to wrap this up, due to my already lengthy response).

In your future responses to my ramblings, please be a lot more specific than, \"in excess of 10 different tracks,\" \"and probably more,\" \"including Saratoga, maybe 10 times,\" etc, violates my sense of proving something.  I don\'t deal in \"about/probably/maybe/probably more.\"  

Your ability to judge what I say, as viable or otherwise, is unnecessary given your proclivity to deal in generalities while ignoring specifics.  

Peace, out...

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Raise a Richie,

You\'d find that I\'m not a big believer in conspiracies:

I think Oswald acted alone;

I don\'t think Dubya blew up either the WTC\'s or the New Orleans Levees. (Whether he was Negligent, Intentionally Ignorant or Casually Indifferent are other matters entirely.)

Now, don\'t ask me about Big Oil and Price Fixing or
Corporate Welfare and the outsourcing of manufacturing for Windfall Profit.

Among trainers, I think you\'ll find there\'s not much collaboration and thus not much chance of inter trainer conspiracies. That said, some leading trainers are committing crimes almost every day and they are doing it at the expense of others. That is not a conspiracy. It is a crooked trainer, acting in concert with a crooked vet, but I\'m optimistic their heyday is behind them.

I can\'t believe Winstar welshed upon a gratuity breeding right for TGraph. DH has made that Farm. OK, now I\'m really rooting against them.

richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Smalltimer:
>
> Some cracks in the facade are showing. I may have
> to start calling
> you \"Smallminded\".
>
> We are going to say that the youngest trainer ever
> admitted to Racing\'s Hall of
> Fame, a trainer who has probably been leading
> trainer at in excess of 10
> different tracks (and probably more)(including
> Saratoga maybe 10 times)is not
> above suspicion because \"His father was a vet\"?
> Even the Citrus Conspiracy seems
> to acknowledge that Mott is beyond reproach.
>
> To say that Neil Pessin \"gave up a veterinary
> career\" is a bit of a stretch.
> Are you confusing Neil with his father, a
> controversial former state vet in the
> state of Kentucky?
>
> Rather than distributing errata, why not go back
> to that definitive synthetic
> breeding study. With any luck, it might be
> finished by the time that all US
> tracks have returned to dirt racing.
>
> Your early contributions were viable, though
> verbose. Now it seems like you
> have joined my dear friend Chuckles on the grassy
> knoll.

[TGJB]

Whoa there. I didn\'t say anybody \"welshed\". It\'s a long, annoying story.

[TGJB]

Look, stop playing word games. YES, the alkalysing agents are in the feed, whether it\'s premixed or added by the vet/trainer (one of the things that needs to be seriously investigated). I\'ve been saying so right along. HOWEVER it gets in the system, it elevates performance-- as the study you yourself posted (which Rick Arthur sent to me independently) shows. Your position is that performance enhancers in the feed is \"natural\", and should be allowed, WITHOUT THE CONSUMER (HORSEPLAYER) KNOWING WHICH HORSES HAVE BEEN DRUGGED AND WHICH HAVE NOT?

I reported to someone who has worked closely with Rick (someone who has seen all the California readings) that the NYRA readings contained lots of 33s and 34s. He said QUOTE-- \"That can\'t happen without them being given something\". END QUOTE.

So, I haven\'t matched up the trainers with the results yet. You want to bet me as to whether there is a pattern? You want to bet me as to whether the higher readings result in better finish positions?

[smalltimer]

TGJB,
I\'m with you on this one.  
There is no question, patterns will clearly indicate performance levels.
I\'m more than happy to make a friendly wager that you and I both know what those results will show.
I think you\'ve landed on a certainty.

[richiebee]

Small:

Good post--thanks for accepting my post in the manner in which it was delivered.

I am usually open minded and accommodating, but I get a bit upset when
allegations are cast in certain directions.

I have been watching Bill Mott train horses since the early 1980s. I worked for
him briefly in 1986, and I must say that we disliked each other quite a bit. To
be honest, Bill disliked me quite a bit more than I disliked him.

As to Neil Pessin, I saw his work up close at Saratoga, 1982: gambled all day,
spent most of the night trying to avoid folks he owed money to; famously spent
an entire day at the races at the Spa in a men\'s room avoiding his landlord.
None of which made him a bad fellow.
 
I think Mott\'s horsemanship skills, and willingness to abide by racing\'s rules
as evidenced by his record, should spare him the indignity of a statement which
smears, though only peripherally, his reputation and indirectly, that of his
father.

I am not ignoring the Cigar allegation. I do not have the time to retrieve
Mott\'s CV in terms of champions trained, or the number of times he has been
leading trainer and at which tracks. To speak in general terms for the purpose
of saving time, can we agree that his career to this point has been rather impressive?

The sad thing is, Smalltimer, if the concern is for drug free racing, nothing
is more counterproductive than to expend energy chasing those who are likely
without guilt.

Sorry if I overreacted. And make sure you leave Forego alone.

[sighthound]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look, stop playing word games. YES, the alkalysing
> agents are in the feed, whether it\'s premixed or
> added by the vet/trainer (one of the things that
> needs to be seriously investigated).

Not playing word games or trying to.  Please check the literature for the results of feeds without such agents.  Alfalfa hay vs timothy.  Adding oats vs pasture only.

>> Your position is that
> performance enhancers in the feed is \"natural\",

No, not at all.  Oats are not \"natural\" in my book.

> I reported to someone who has worked closely with
> Rick (someone who has seen all the California
> readings) that the NYRA readings contained lots of
> 33s and 34s. He said QUOTE-- \"That can\'t happen
> without them being given something\". END QUOTE.

Please talk to more than one person, and please talk to those others who have done research in this area.  There are very qualified and nationally-respected clinicians (and Dr. Arthur certainly is one, too) who feel that milkshaking doesn\'t do much at all for a horse.

It seems you\'ve already decided what level of TCO2 is cheating and what is not.  Why even bother to compare that to your figures?

[sighthound]

smalltimer Wrote:
> I\'m more than happy to make a friendly wager that
> you and I both know what those results will show.
>  I think you\'ve landed on a certainty.

In other words, you enjoin the methodology of making up one\'s mind before the data tells one what seems to be true, then simply using the data to prove and support one\'s opinion.

That isn\'t remotely \"science\".  That\'s politics

[TGJB]

Yeah, you\'re probably right. So bet me. It doesn\'t have to be for Jan 08. Pick a month from 06-7, I\'ll request the data, and send it to you.

The very study you posted here showed the correlation between TCO2 and performance.

[smalltimer]

sightsound,
Please forward me the name of your book title, so I can read the chapter explaining your scientific explanation making Oats not natural? I eagerly anticipate your reply. And can I get that book online....Oh, I think I just found it \"OATS, NATURAL OR NOT? ONE MAN\'S OPINION\"

[smalltimer]

richiebee,
Many thanks for the response.  (I\'ll try to keep this short.   lol).
I have great respect for Bill Mott.  Agreed, his success speaks for itself.  At no point did I infer he used illegal drugs, I simply stated he was a product of a situation which could have led him on that path.  Fair enough?
I only mentioned Neil Pessin in passing, he was someone who came to mind. I could have mentioned tons of these type individuals on the La/Cal/Ill/Fla, etc etc circuit, but I was only making a quick point.
Reference Cigar, the son of Palace Music the sire of 300+ offspring including Cigar, the dam produced 11 live foals in 14 years, including 5 that were actually racehorses.  Those horses out of the dam produced horses that made it to the track, and also produced offspring.  The point being, neither of us could prove/disprove Cigar was/wasn\'t sterile through the use of drugs.  Neither you or I could ever prove with 100% certainly that we are right.  Right? Also, at no point did I ever \"allege\" anything about Mott. Couple years ago I did a study of over 300 of his animals, about 2,000 starts, so I have enough respect to play his animals in the right spots.  

richiebee, I say, with all due respect, I don\'t chase trainers trying to catch the illusive cheaters.  But am I congnizant of the very best trainers, performance wise in the entire industry?  The answer is yes.  
The need to address the possible overreaction on your part is not necessary.  I reciprocated with some smart ass remarks also.  That type of exchange makes for fun reading to some, but it doesn\'t add much to the room. You and I are very passionate about the sport.  We both see things that are counterproductive and hurt the sport.  Forego will be left alone.....per your request.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

I\'ll correct the typo if you tell the story.

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whoa there. I didn\'t say anybody \"welshed\". It\'s a
> long, annoying story.

[Barry Irwin]

1. The quality of those watching the barn and the Derby horses varies from person to person and is usually not impressive.

2. You can milkshake in Dubai because they don\'t test for it. Never have.

3. What on earth does this have to do with Todd Pletcher.

4. You act like a public handicapper: make a semi-bold prediction, then backtrack and cover your sorry ass.

[heatherk]

I want to play devils advocate and ask the question, What happens as a result of the use of all these drugs in the so called superior equine animals?  Answer: We have all admitted it ruins the game.  We have yet to discuss the effects on  breeding, when these same horses are snapped up by the Arabs for huge amounts. These trainers and their cheating ways actually, to my knowledge, bring vast amounts of middle east revenue to the table as the buyer purchases damaged goods.
I would like to see a study of these horses purchased for millions and the offspring and durability they produce.