Can we talk about something else??

[P-Dub]

Enough.

No more posts about a bad ride, Dutrow has no class, theories on what type of pattern a horse needs to win a TC, steroids, adjusting the TC races, etc... The TC is finished for this year. Some posts are repeated over and over ad nauseum. You\'ve made your points, some of them well written.  Some not.

Curlin races this weekend, Heatseeker vs Lava Man in another 3 weeks or so.

If you have something new to add great. If not, give it a rest.

[alm]

Amen.

[Lost Cause]

P-Dub Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
Heatseeker vs Lava Man in another 3 weeks or so. >


Does anybody really want to see that match-up...Lava Man seems to be done..

[P-Dub]

Lost Cause Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P-Dub Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> Heatseeker vs Lava Man in another 3 weeks or so. >
>
>
>
> Does anybody really want to see that
> match-up...Lava Man seems to be done..


LC,

He ran a pretty game race in the Whittingham last weekend. I know his trainer isn\'t the most popular around here, but that isn\'t the horse\'s fault.  Lava Man is a 3 time winner of the Hollywood Gold Cup, and a 2 time winner of the Big Cap. Those races aren\'t as tough as they used to be, but still impressive.

In an era when horses are retired prematurely, this hard knocking gelding is still out there trying.  He still has star appeal, and deserves our respect for what he\'s accomplished.  Yes, I would like to see that match-up. He may not get my money, but I will be rooting for him.

[fkach]

Aside from the fact that Lava Man is aging, his other problem is that he has never been as good on either turf or artificial as he was on dirt.

If I owned the horse and wanted to continue running, there is zero chance he would still be in CA. I would have looked for a circuit where he seemed to fit well and where there were at least a few decent opportunities nearby and sent him there (to a new trainer if required).

[miff]

\"Aside from the fact that Lava Man is aging, his other problem is that he has never been as good on either turf or artificial as he was on dirt.

If I owned the horse and wanted to continue running, there is zero chance he would still be in CA. I would have looked for a circuit where he seemed to fit well and where there were at least a few decent opportunities nearby and sent him there (to a new trainer if required)\"


Fkach,
....every time he left Cali, he ran awful.Lava Man is my \"new\" Funny Cide, an overrated reputation horse that gets over bet.


Mike

[fkach]

mike,

Every time he left CA, he shipped thousands of miles to a spot where he had little or no chance of winning. That\'s why I said I would ship permanently to a new trainer at a circuit where he fit well. That way I could avoid those long ships but keep him on dirt.  

IMO, he had one brief period where he was really top notch. Then his form was solid, but never up to top notch Grade 1 standards. He was dominating a somewhat weak group out in CA. He\'s been overbet ever since, but he\'s been badly misplaced for the last year or so. This horse does not really want turf or artificial. He\'s a notch below his dirt form on those other surfaces.

[Lost Cause]

>
>He may not get my money, but I will be rooting for him.

Are you betting against Lava Man in the race and rooting for him to win?  That does not seem to make sense.  

I meant no disrespect to the horse as I definitely thought he was a very good horse..but he has lost a lot of steps from his best..I also think California killed this horse when they put in the Cushion/Polytrack..I would have enjoyed this matchup if it was Lava MAn at his best Vs. Heatseeker ...but as it stands now Heatseeker is just a lot better and so are a lot of other Cal horses..
Sorry...No interest here in that matchup..

[Flighted Iron]

P-DUB,

  Curlin\'s race seems like an interesting start? Automatically giving at least
2 TG points before entering the gate.Granted his reputation precedes himself,however neg 4 or so is his best.Against the impost he\'s vulnerable if only
1.5 points off. ?

  Respectfully,
   Flighted Iron

[Lost Cause]

Flighted Iron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P-DUB,
>
>   Curlin\'s race seems like an interesting start?
> Automatically giving at least
> 2 TG points before entering the gate.Granted his
> reputation precedes himself,however neg 4 or so is
> his best.Against the impost he\'s vulnerable if
> only
> 1.5 points off. ?
>
>   Respectfully,
>    Flighted Iron

I feel like i\'m chasing this horse now but Brass Hat with Borel might be able to give him a run at the weights..He got a really bad trip in last (Very Slow Pace and Very Very wide on the last turn) and in his other races before that.  With a better trip a slight regression from Curlin and the weight difference who knows...

[P-Dub]

Lost Cause Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >He may not get my money, but I will be rooting
> for him.
>
> Are you betting against Lava Man in the race and
> rooting for him to win?  That does not seem to
> make sense.  
>
> I meant no disrespect to the horse as I definitely
> thought he was a very good horse..but he has lost
> a lot of steps from his best..I also think
> California killed this horse when they put in the
> Cushion/Polytrack..I would have enjoyed this
> matchup if it was Lava MAn at his best Vs.
> Heatseeker ...but as it stands now Heatseeker is
> just a lot better and so are a lot of other Cal
> horses..
> Sorry...No interest here in that matchup..


If I\'m rooting for him, but not betting on him then that would infer.........

I have no bet in the race.

He just ran 3rd in a GR 1 turf race. He\'s seen his best days, is best on dirt. I get all that.  But if a multiple winner of the Gold Cup and Big Cap is still running, I want to see him.

Sorry Miff, he isn\'t \"overrated\". Multiple winner of the Gold Cup and Big Cap. GR 1 winner on both dirt and turf. Won the Gold Cup, Big Cap, and Pacific Classic in the same year. Was a top class horse for 3 years. All this from a once 12.5k claimer.

I don\'t want to hear about competition, shipping, TG numbers, etc... He won in  open company, if you want him to beat tougher competition talk to your East Coast boys and have them ship out west.  St. Liam did and Rock Hard Ten drilled him.

Like I said, we all bemoan horses retiring early.  Here we have an honest horse still racing in GR1 company, and some around here want to discredit the horse. He\'s overated, can\'t ship, blah blah. How many races did Sky Beauty win away from New York??  Is she overrated??  Its too bad we can\'t appreciate a horse without having to look for reasons not to.

[miff]

Hi Paul,

You like this horse,I don\'t and there is no doubt that when he shipped out of CALI,he was an automatic toss(check the PP\'s) He\'s a \"has been\" for a while now and was never that fast.He was beating up on the same slow rats for several years out in Cali.The top of the paper may say GRADE 1 but he never beat a FAST field.


Mike

[MonmouthGuy]

Lava Man at 7-1 compared to G1 Woodward winner Premium Tap at 28-1 in the 2006 Breeders Cup Classic was a gift from the trifecta Gods.

I have a hard time understanding people who let their \"regional pride\" control their emotions when it comes to betting horses.  (Although the California money that pours into the KD parimutuel pools every year is appreciated.)

[P-Dub]

Ridiculous statement.

So all money bet on Lava Man comes from California?? I guess no need to buy TG or a form.  All people do is bet on local horses. And of course, Lava Man or California horses are the only underlays ever recorded.  

We\'ve gone over the Derby performances from California horses previously. Overall, they do pretty well.  I guess if you throw out Silver Charm, Real Quiet, Charismatic (all 3 won the first 2 legs), Cavonnier, Giacomo, etc... then they really suck. Point Given, Derby loser, turned out to be a real bum too.

Don\'t let the facts get in the way of a good story Monmouth. I suppose next you\'ll be another telling us that Easy Goer was better than Sunday Silence.  Thats my all time favorite story.

You appreciate the Cal money in the Derby. What are you, the Clown\'s nephew??  Like you hit that race every year.

[jbelfior]

I\'m not so sure that Curlin has become more formidable at the 1 1/4 distance,where
he may go down as one of the greatest classic distance horses of all time.

Several things against him are obvious. The return from a lay-off and Dubai (would love to know the Thoro stats on that) may be more of a problem than spotting weight to average dirt runners.

IMO, the track at Churchill at this time of year tends to favor speed. The surface is not that much different from Belmont in that it can get cuppy where some horses love it while others hate it. One of these days, SAM P. (the Cat Thief\'s tend to peak at 4), a Churchill Downs lover, will break through to a negative number due to a low impost, a favorable bias, and an inside post position.

Good Luck,
Joe B.