race spacing???

[P-Dub]

Exactly. Especially since this was the quote I was referring too.

\"I sort of respectfully disagree with letting the trainer make the decision\".

Then why employ a trainer?? Just train the horse yourself. There\'s more to the decision making process than a sheet, although it plays a factor.

\"Has every serious pro horse player trained or ridden thoroughbreds? I didn\'t realize that was a pre-requisite to be able to win serious money as a player\".

This has nothing to do with the topic. Its not about handicapping a race.

[TGJB]

There are plenty of reasons to employ a trainer. Having him manage the horse is not one of them, unless the trainer is very sophisticated and has access to the necessary data for both his horses and all the ones it might run against.

Trainers are like general practitioner doctors-- they have to know a little about many things. But they don\'t shoe horses, or do all the things a vet does, and they are not equipped (in most cases) to do the kind of things I do when I advise a client, including advising on spacing. You would be shocked at how many decisions are involved-- which part of the country to run in (which involves, among other things, how good the horses in the division are, and what kind of races they write), which trainer to use, which rider, time between races (which means thinking a race or two ahead with stake horses), when to sell.

Horses coming off tops often look great, and fool their trainers. This happens all the time. The good ones know it, and listen.

[ronwar]

Curiosity got the best of me and I looked up the -4 race. Wow! She looked great inhaling the field and running off.  You must have been ecstatic watching her open up in the stretch like that.

[Silver Charm]

Interesting commentary.

I was once told a story by a certain trainer about a debate between multiple parties on whether to run a specific horse in the BC Classic.

The owner was there, the trainer, the general manager, the Vet and a couple of others. The trainer clearly wished to run. Others were not so sure and a  rather heated discussion evolved.

At one point shouting become the tone of voice and even one party lunged at another and they were separated.

The owner stood up and said they were going to settle it democratically. Everybody got to vote but the only ones that counted were his and the trainers. And he was voting with the trainer.

The horse ended up winning the BC Cup Classic and the rest as they say is history.

[TGJB]

Have you factored in that it was the trainer\'s account of the conversation?

I suspect that the owner (actually his grandson, same stable name) just became a client of mine.

[Silver Charm]

So does that mean the story isn\'t true if the trainer himself told it?

[TGJB]

It means it might be true, it might be the way he remembers it, it might be the way he wants to remember it. It\'s easy to tell it that way if the horse wins. If the horse had pulled up on the turn, would he have told the story as he overruled a vet?

[Silver Charm]

The Vet was behind him.

Or maybe that\'s just the way he remembers and told the story

[TGJB]

If the owner, the trainer and the vet were all for running, who had to be overruled?

[Silver Charm]

The General Manager at the time who was known to have a temper

The Vet was Copelan who did not have a temper.

Or you can be certain punches would have been thrown

[Silver Charm]

Keep in mind the Owner did not cast his vote until he had heard all of the arguments.

Which in this case was literally...........

[imallin]

You\'re employing the trainer to feed the horse, rub its belly and make sure it goes into its next race in fine physical shape. You, on the other hand, as the owner, are responsible for making sure that your investment gets entered into the best possible spot at the best possible time.

You sort of implied that riders and trainers are more of an expert on how to ride or train than successful pro gamblers are...i just wanted to defend people who never have been on horseback or have never trained a horse. I wanted to say that you don\'t have to have been an jock, trainer, ex jock or ex trainer to know where your horse should be entered, when it should be entered, how it should be ridden, etc.

[jimbo66]

what is with the big secrecy, which horse was it?

[fkach]

I think a top notch handicapper can do a much better job than the average trainer managing a horse, finding weak fields, evaluating a division etc...

However, I think the combination of a trainer and top handicapper together can do a much better job than either can do alone when it comes to making adjustments to the schedule and spacing etc... The trainer and his staff are usually more in touch with the day to changes in behavior, minor injuries, how the horse came out of a race relative to usual, eating habits etc... that IMO should be part of thinking about when and if to run.  I see little upside to being totally inflexible about spacing or anything else. There are exceptions to all the rules. IMO, being doctrinaire can leave a lot of money and black type on the table.

[SoCalMan2]

thought people would be interested in this string given recent discussions.