Proud Spell out of Breeders Cup

[Silver Charm]

Probably so. But when handicappers have a crappy day wagering big money on unknowns who fields the complaining customer service calls. And that is a kind way of referring to the calls.

Nobody gets more excited than me not just around Breeders Cup time but even leading up to it. And we are now at about that point in time.

A better solution would have been to have stuck with the Traditional Dirt/Turf venue. Then added a couple of New Breeders Cup races at a venue like Keeneland and run on the Synthetic as test program in the morning before the really big show launches. See how the races filed, how the average handle looked, etc. Also would have been a good pilot opportunity for Keeneland to handle a small BC Day and then see about a complete remodeling for the entire day.

But moving the entire platform to a complete unknown. Cmon........

[HP]

It\'s obvious that this is one way that the powers that be in racing have decided to deal with this issue.  Everybody knows the poly hurt Keeneland this past year.  But...they have sunk a ton of money into this and you would imagine that they thought it through.  So what about Breeders Cup?  Are they going to say, \"we are behind this polytrack 100%, except on our most important day of the year?\"  Of course not.  They are running it at Santa Anita, one of the traditional venues, and they will try to get people to accept it.  They made a commitment to this surface and they are going to try to tough it out.  Makes more sense than converting the poly tracks back to dirt before trying to get the public to accept it, or at least see how bad the non-acceptance is...

The permanent venue idea (Churchill only) was floated before the whole poly issue.  I\'d be surprised if they did that.  I believe it\'s even less likely now, because it leaves the poly converts high and dry.

As for Jerry, Rags, and others withholding info or whatever, that\'s not going to have any impact.  Did I mention that they have invested a ton of money in this?  Plus, what happened to freedom of choice?  I personally don\'t love poly, but if there are people who want to play it, why punish them?  

HP

[RICH]

To determine year end honors and championship races on a synthetic track is ridiculous, there is no way in hell that handicappers will throw down the dollars as in years past on that stuff and chaos it produces. Now the turf racing is a different story, that\'s not the problem. I used to love this time of year. Lets not forget, the ladies day on Friday, the splitting up of the tradional BC card and the additional crap races they added on top of the poly issue. A total disgrace and they will pay in the form of a complete drop in handle on the poly races. Yeah, we may play a coupple of small exotics for shits and grins, but would you bet the same big dollars on that as in the past? Just look what mud did to the handle last year, its worse than that.

[sighthound]

I guess those of us who have no problem handicapping on the various synthetic surfaces either here or in Europe (after all, we have spent years learning to handicap  on various markedly idiosyncratic turf and dirt tracks, it\'s no big deal to some of us to add another) can jump on all that \"general public\" money, as the \"big handicappers\" won\'t be playing.

Thanks!

[P-Dub]

Silver Charm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Suggesting Jerry, Len, Beyer, and Crist withold
> information for the BC hoping >that handle
> declines 50%.
>
> I never suggested they would be hoping it declined
> 50%. I just implied that it might. And if it did
> then maybe some of these people making these
> uncustomer friendly decisions might go to them
> first and say \"what do you and your customers
> think?\" As in help us because we are clueless
> decision making idiots and you understand the
> handicapper and the sport better than we do.
>
> >There are many resources for handicapping besides
> those you mentioned.
>
> None that are so widely accepted, respected or
> that consistently work.
>

Silver,
There are many companies that produce PPs.  Trackmaster makes an exceptional PP, with perhaps the best figures of any PP.  Way better than Beyer numbers.  The number of players that use TG or Rags is probably smaller than you think.  


> I rest my case...........

I hope so.

[Ill-bred]

We are two months away from the Breeders\' Cup, and the track surface is not complete. It\'s a total unknown.

There is no denying that this presents issues.

[P-Dub]

APny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P-dub,
>
> While I can respect you being annoyed by all the
> negative posts about the Breeders Cup...it\'s
> people like you that are the problem...

People like me. You mean people who actually attend the races?? Who travel to various tracks, wager money,  promote the sport to their friends?? I guess if I hysterically write EVERYDAY how much I hate synthetic surfaces, I\'ll be one of the good guys. Listen up, I prefer dirt surfaces. But if synthetic surfaces are a reality, instead of crying about it ad nauseum I will adjust.

>people who are just willing to sit back and accept the demise
> of the sport.

Wrong. There is a lot more wrong with the sport than the current surface fixation some rant on and on about. If someone can some up with a concrete suggestion fixing these problems, I\'m all for it.  Throwing around multiple rants on a forum site isn\'t one of them.

> The Breeders cup is one of the very
> few chances for the best of the best in each
> division to face off...If nobody is willing to
> stand up as customers..nothing will ever
> change...and the sport will continue to be run by
> suits who don\'t keep the customer in mind when
> making decisions. You can\'t really argue that this
> will be a real breeders cup...with so many good
> horses staying home.


You don\'t know that.  You guys are making assumptions based on guesswork.  Name the horses that are 100% not going to the BC this year.  Its still conjecture at this point.  The headline written by SC states Proud Spell is out of the Breeders\' Cup.  Oh really.  You might want to call up the owner and let him know.  He\'s on record stating that he still might run her in the BC.  Curlin,  while possibly skipping the BC,  hasn\'t made any definitive statements either way. Before hysterically declaring that the sky is falling on this year\'s BC, lets see what the top horses will end up doing.  



> I was laughing last year at
> Monmouth because Sam Houston put a big ad in the
> program wanting to be considered to host the
> event.  I thought it was funny...but now I believe
> more of the top horses would have shown up there
> than at Santa Anita this year.  Kind of sad.

More horses would have shown up at Sam Houston than Santa Anita. Sure. Now more people are laughing.

You guys almost make me want to ask for Chuckles back.

Almost.

[fkach]

>Before hysterically declaring that the sky is falling on this year\'s BC, lets see what the top horses will end up doing.<

Off the top of my head.  

Proud Spell, Curlin, and Ginger Punch have already been mentioned.

Zito is pretty much on record as disliking the stuff. That could eliminate Commentator and all his 3YOs (Da Tara, Cool Coal Man, Coal Play, etc...)

Hysterical Lady clearly doesn\'t like it.  

Pyro is suspect.

Harlem Rocker

That\'s already an impressive list before we even begin speculating about 2YOs and others that have never tried it.

[Silver Charm]

It is not the number of people who use TG and Rags but how much they bet. Also both should advise their customers to send their horses to SA for the BC.

Treat these races like non-betting Exhibitions just with real big purses.

Read my post on how the BC should have phased the new surface in to their event. It makes so much sense even you can understand it.    

P-Dub there is a good card on dirt Sat at Saratoga on Travers Day and then another on Sunday at Del Mar on Synthetic. Never hurts to have a little mix then the handicapper can pick the spots he wants.

Good Luck

[Flighted Iron]

for a guy from north cacalacki you sure are in a \"new york state of mind\".

[Flighted Iron]

well written. I 2nd the motion against complacency.

 \"the simple minded and the uninformed can be easily led astray
  those than can not connect the dots hey look the other way\"

                                              Mellencamp
  WE WANT DIRT
   Iron

[P-Dub]

Silver,

Completely agree with you about the surface.  This has been a complete clusterbleep from the start.

My main point is that despite these problems,  I\'m not going to let it ruin my enjoyment of the biggest day in racing. I\'ll just roll with it.

I know you have a lot of passion on this subject, and I know its well meant. But the point has been talked about enough.

[P-Dub]

fkach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Before hysterically declaring that the sky is
> falling on this year\'s BC, lets see what the top
> horses will end up doing.<
>
> Off the top of my head.  
>
> Proud Spell, Curlin, and Ginger Punch have already
> been mentioned.
>
> Zito is pretty much on record as disliking the
> stuff. That could eliminate Commentator and all
> his 3YOs (Da Tara, Cool Coal Man, Coal Play,
> etc...)
>
> Hysterical Lady clearly doesn\'t like it.  
>
> Pyro is suspect.
>
> Harlem Rocker
>
> That\'s already an impressive list before we even
> begin speculating about 2YOs and others that have
> never tried it.


Fkach,

Most , if not all, of the horses you mentioned have not made any definitive plans for the BC. Yes, many have raised concerns.  But until the connections of these horses come and say they definitely won\'t run then you don\'t know.  Its just speculation.

[jbelfior]

It\'s understandable for those who make their biggest plays of the year on the BC card.

My suggestion: temper your dirt plays and double up on the turf. Santa Anita has one of the best courses in the country.


Anyway, forget the Breeder\'s Cup; it\'s 2 1/2 months away. We have a terrific race coming up on Saturday.


Good Luck,
Joe B.

[Silver Charm]

Agree with both your points.

Best racing weekend of the year coming up. Or at least since Derby/Oaks.

The playoffs to the BC start now until about a week before BC.

These previous win and you are in\'s are meaningless if you are in but out of form.

Form, Freshness and Footing are your keys to making money on BC Day........