Horse of the Year

[Josephus]

Take your pick: Zenyatta, Goldikova, Raven\'s Pass.  I don\'t think Curlin should even be considered.  His 3 Grade I wins in this country were in races filled with GIII and Alw horses ( and he was under pressure to win the last two) and the fields in Dubai were not much better. He didn\'t handle the surface in the Classic? Funny, he handled it for a 1 1/8, he had the lead at that point, he made the wide sweep that other winners made on the day.... the difference in the BC was he didn\'t have a bunch of tomato cans following him...even Tiago, another who supposedly does his best on \"dirt\" beat him.  Remember last year he couldn\'t get by Rags, lost in the Haskill, and won the BC in the slop when only one other horse ran a lick on that track.

[basket777]

hyow wi9ll this make me a better handicapper?

[marcus]

Tough Call on those three or four horses for top spot .  As I weigh triple crown races heavily in my decision each year for Horse of the Year Honors - and even though he was eased in the Belmont , my own personal pick would be Big Brown ...

[imallin]

Curlin should win and here\'s why. Because voters can actually do horse racing a service by not punishing the horse who kept racing and rewarding the horse who ducked the better competition. There was no reason at all for Zenyatta to not be in the classic, so i dont think you want to reward her because HE lost. Curlin took on the best the world had to offer and Zenyatta did not.

[P-Dub]

Please.

As Josephus stated, Curlin beat up on 2nd rate competition. He was all out to beat a 40-1 shot, beat the same GR2/Allowance horses a few times.  The World Cup was hardly as stellar as it usually is. The races he won were GR 1 in name only, find me just one GR1 caliber horse he defeated. When he did face top competiton he lost, twice.

Zenyatta faced the best distaffers in the country.  Home and away,  dirt and synthetic.  She not only won, she dominated her competition. She beat last year\'s BC and division champion twice, not to mention last year\'s BC runnerup. Both were soundly trounced. Zenyatta displayed her style and talent over and over.  She was clearly the star of BC weekend.  Ducked the better competition?? What comnpetition did Curlin face?? The 2 best fields he faced....he LOST.

Favorite Trick was HOY in 1997 defeating Skip Away for the award.  Skip Away had a much better year than Curlin did this year. Yet, he still didn\'t win HOY. Older horss have an advantage in HOY voting.  Most years they run in the biggest and most prestigious races. Here\'s the thing....you have to win them to earn the championship. Curlin hasn\'t, except when he faced mediocre horses.

I admire Mr. Jackson for running Curlin in the Classic. However, you don\'t give away the biggest prize in the game because of a sporting gesture. If you look at Curlin\'s races objectively, instead of fawning all over him because he wasn\'t retired, you hardly see HOY performances.  You see a very talented horse, beating the same decent horses over and over, who clearly wasn\'t as good as he was the previous year.

At this point of her career, there was no reason for Zenyatta to race in the Classic. Next year, perhaps they can find a spot to race against the boys.  Perhaps the Big Cap, maybe next year\'s Classic. But an undefeated star who dominated her competition?? Its called Horse Of The Year.

[imallin]

If Zenyatta was so good and head and shoulders better than Curlin (as you seem to be suggesting) than the connections were a dope to not run her for 5 million on a track she relished.

Curlin made 5 million dollars and beat \'nobody\'? If Curlin isn\'t the best horse in the world, than who is? Is there a better horse who earned less money? Curlin earned almost 2 million more than everyone else.

Zenyatta is great, but i just feel you can\'t award a horse who didn\'t race vs the best. Horse of the year = MVP and Curlin is the MVP.

As a horse racing society we want our great mares to race the males, We don\'t want our owners to shy away from all time great competition.

if the owners of a great female want to win horse of the year, they need to run against the best and not enter a lesser race and hope the actual best horse loses. You don\'t vote for horse of the year who backs into the title. If Curlin wins the BC Classic he\'s HOY in a landslide. There\'s not even a debate, which means this.....if there\'s no debate at all should he win, there shouldn\'t even be a debate for him losing by 4 lenghts (or whatever the margin happens to be).

Curlin is an east coast/midwest based animal and Zenyatta is a SO Cal based runner, are you saying Curlin should be punished because the BC happened to be in California this year? You take this race out of California and Curlin wins the BC Classic for fun and wins HOY in a landslide.

Voting against Curlin is saying that the 4 lengths he lost by in the Classic is enough to take a unanimous HOY title away from him.

The 64 dollar question is do 4 lengths make a horse go from unanimous winner to a loser in HOY voting. If you say Zenyatta is HOY, than you are saying yes, 4 lengths make a horse go from a unanimous lock HOY to a loser.

[P-Dub]

imallin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Zenyatta was so good and head and shoulders
> better than Curlin (as you seem to be suggesting)
> than the connections were a dope to not run her
> for 5 million on a track she relished.

Never said that or suggested it.
 
> Curlin made 5 million dollars and beat \'nobody\'?

Pretty much.  I asked anyone to name a top horse he beat. Still waiting. I can name you top horses he lost to.

> If Curlin isn\'t the best horse in the world, than
> who is?

Zarkava ran against males, and looked pretty impressive doing it. A little race called the Prix de l\'Arc de Triomphe. Perhaps you\'ve heard of it.

>Is there a better horse who earned less
> money? Curlin earned almost 2 million more than
> everyone else.

Its not a money competition. Purses get jacked up all the time.
 
> Zenyatta is great, but i just feel you can\'t award
> a horse who didn\'t race vs the best. Horse of the
> year = MVP and Curlin is the MVP.

Again, see 2 YOs that have won HOY.  Its happened before. They didn\'t race against the best either. And when Curlin faced top competiton this year, he LOST. What don\'t you understand about that.  Listening to you,  you would have thought he won every race, beaten every horse. He didn\'t.  He beat up on a very mediocre handicap division.
 
> As a horse racing society we want our great mares
> to race the males, We don\'t want our owners to shy
> away from all time great competition.

All time great competition?? You think the handicap horses running this year make up all time great status?? You have got to be kidding.

>
> if the owners of a great female want to win horse
> of the year, they need to run against the best and
> not enter a lesser race and hope the actual best
> horse loses. You don\'t vote for horse of the year
> who backs into the title. If Curlin wins the BC
> Classic he\'s HOY in a landslide.

Probably so, but not a landslide.  Zenyatta would have had her supporters.

> There\'s not even a debate,

Wrong. There would have been a debate. Having TVG slobber all overthemselves for Curlin doesnt mean that people can\'t objectively evaluate his races.

> which means this.....if there\'s no
> debate at all should he win, there shouldn\'t even
> be a debate for him losing by 4 lenghts (or
> whatever the margin happens to be).

You\'re suggesting that if he lost by more, it wouldn\'t have mattered?  Unbelievable. If we\'re not going to count the biggest race of the year, then why don\'t we just vote for the award in August?? Some of your logic is downright baffling.


> Curlin is an east coast/midwest based animal and
> Zenyatta is a SO Cal based runner, are you saying
> Curlin should be punished because the BC happened
> to be in California this year? You take this race
> out of California and Curlin wins the BC Classic
> for fun and wins HOY in a landslide.

Yeah, and if my Aunt had a set she would be my uncle. Whats your point?  We can talk hypotheticals all day, but lets stick to the facts. There is absolutely no evidence he would win the Classic for fun on another track. Venues have decided many races. If the Belmont Stakes were run at Santa Anita, Sunday Silence wins the Triple Crown. But it isn\'t, and he didn\'t. Just your opinion, which you\'re certainly entitled to.

> Voting against Curlin is saying that the 4 lengths
> he lost by in the Classic is enough to take a
> unanimous HOY title away from him.

Again, pure speculation on your part (the unanimous part). And yes,  getting beaten on racing\'s Championship Day will do that to a horse.  You think he\'s the first horse to lose a BC race and also lose a division championship??

>
> The 64 dollar question is do 4 lengths make a
> horse go from unanimous winner to a loser in HOY
> voting. If you say Zenyatta is HOY, than you are
> saying yes, 4 lengths make a horse go from a
> unanimous lock HOY to a loser.

Get off this beaten lengths fixation. You\'re saying we get to pick and choose which races count and which ones don\'t? You\'re actually suggesting BC races don\'t count??  To answer your question, yes. Losing by 4 lengths in the biggest race of the year and finishing off the board matter. And again, he was a lock (in your opinion) because racing focused on the reigning HOY. But again, if you objectively analyzed his performances this year, hw wasn\'t as impressive as last year. When he faced top competition, he lost.  Thats not opinion, its fact.

[smalltimer]

It could be argued that Zarkava was the best horse in the world this year.  On turf, untouchable by the best horses on the planet.  Why didn\'t she come over and destroy any horse in the turf races?  She would embarrass Curlin in any turf race. She proved to be untouchable on one particular surface. Her connections goal all year was to win the Arc, and she did.  They achieved what they wanted.

Zenyatta, unbeaten on Cushion, Polytrack, Pro Ride and Regular dirt.  You have to admit, she\'s a pretty nice runner considering she\'s unbeaten on 4 different surfaces.  At no point did Jerry Moss or John Shireffs plan to run Zenyatta other than the Ladies Classic.  they achieved what they wanted, plus, I spoke with John Shireffs about 2 minutes before the race, and it\'s likely she will run again.

I\'m not a particular fan of Curlin or his connections, yet I give them credit for running him on a surface that he was untested on.  I certainly couldn\'t downgrade him because he got beat by 3 other horses.  The fact that Curlin lost by 4 lengths and had 3 horses run right past him is what some people will remember.    

Few people would argue that Curlin was the best horse in the country on dirt.  Yet, Curlin couldn\'t beat either Raven\'s Pass or Henrythenavigator on Pro-Ride, and he couldn\'t touch either one of them on turf.  So who is the best horse?

Maybe those lamebrains need to expand the HOY honors to a couple more categories.  I.E., Best Dirt Horse, Best Synthetic Horse, etc.  That way, Asmussen won\'t have to whine if someone other than Curlin is named HOY.

As a horseracing fan, I couldn\'t complain if either Curlin, Zenyatta were named horse of the year. But, I\'m just like you, I just have an opinion, not a vote, so who really cares what you or I think?

[miff]

You guys make Curlin sound like a slow rat, he\'s obviously not.I was not a fan and went after him a few times because of his lack of \"quick\". He is probably going to win the award but both Zenyatta and Zarkava are very worthy.

Re Zenyatta, she beat up mostly on the weak Cali fillies/mares, so you have to have the same criticism as Curlins company. She caught Ginger Punch, Hysterical Lady(fastest on dirt imo) both over the top and NFG on synths and she was on her home court.I think Zenyatta could have won the classic and is a legit beast but with a vulnerable running style.


Mike

[smalltimer]

miff,
As always, no subject is complete until you weigh in on it.

No doubt Ginger Punch was \"over the top\" when she was coming off a 10 week layoff at Oaklawn and got DRILLED by 8 lengths in the Apple Blossom by Zenyatta.

The fact that Zenyatta beat Hystericalady twice without difficulty proves Zenyatta\'s vulnerable running style considering Hysterical sat on a easy pace in the Lady Secret and Zenyatta went past her like she was standing still.

The sad thing in the filly and mare divisions, all the small fields they all faced were in the area of 7-8 horses.  Hysterical Lady only faced 48 horses all year long in 8 outs, Ginger only faced 52 horses in 8 starts and Zenyatta faced 43 in 7 starts.  The list of really outstanding mares is pretty short when some of the great ones fall of the track.  But, would it have made any difference if Pure Clan, Proud Spell, etc had shown up?  Not one bit, they were running for second money....

[miff]

Small,

Hystertical Lady does not run as fast on synths as dirt, her races on that surface are tosses.Ginger Punch did not run nearly her best at Oaklawn.Zenyatta was life and death more than once this year, from memory and did not DRILL lesser on a occasion or two this year.You forgot to name the \"runners\" she beat in Cali, 5-6 times.Zenyatta is a terrific horse who deserves all her props but has a vulnerable running style, imo.

You missed my point that those beating up on Curlins company lines also have to look at Zenyatta.On the other hand Zarkava beat the best on a tougher french grass circuit and won the Arc.


Mike

[magicnight]

Mike, could it be we agree on something? If I had a vote, it would go to Zarkava.

Bob

[P-Dub]

Mike,

I wasn\'t implying he\'s a \"slow rat\". I just wanted to reply to Imallin, who apparently thinks Curlin should be awarded HOY simply because he\'s Curlin and others aren\'t.

The difference between Zenyatta and Curlin is this (and BTW, to say Ginger Punch was over the top back in April is hard to believe): When Curlin faced top competition, he wasn\'t up to the task. One could blame the surface, he lost on turf and Pro-Ride, but the fact remains he lost. The horses he defeated, can you say he beat 1 good field this year??  Maybe the Clark, thats it.  I addressed the other points already and won\'t repeat them.

Her running style historically is a disadvantage, but doesn\'t that make her all the more impressive?  Pace, traffic, nothing has kept her from being undefeated. Many closers come flying home to win by a neck, head, or some other small margin. She draws off to win by lengths for the most part.

I have great respect for Curlin and his connections. But this is 2008,not 2007.  Lets judge him on this year, not his fantastic 2007 when he was a well deserved HOY. He shouldn\'t get bonus points because he remained in training.

[miff]

Paul,

Did not say Ginger was over the top at Oak, said she did not run near her best.In the BC I thought GP and HL would be no factor and bet accordingly.

Honest,I could give a rats a-- about who wins what award.Curlin ran as fast this year as last on several occasions. Was his last few races \"off steroids\"?, was he worn down from his previous running/shipping?. If the BC was on dirt, I think we would know, but it\'s tough to swallow that two 3yr old turf milers ran him over.

I would not be surprised if Zenyatta gets it, she is one of three possible deserving winners,notwithstanding that she beat up on the Sisters Of The Poor for most of the year.

Mike

[TGJB]

I should probably stay out of this, but Curlin ran only in GIs,won all 5 of them he raced in on dirt, only losses came on other surfaces his connections were brave enough to try him on. He ran all over the country (and the world). The Oaklawn race was the only one where Zenyatta didn\'t have the huge advantage of being at home, and racing over a surface many others don\'t like-- and there were lots of GIs at Bel and Sar that she could have run in instead of beating up punching bags. She gets credit for Oaklawn, but as far as I\'m concerned this is no contest.