Horse of the Year

[TGJB]

Wrong. Public act, public apology.

[P-Dub]

Jimbo,

Apologies for calling your opinions asinine. I was out of line.

[jimbo66]

P-Dub,

No problem.  Perhaps my reference to \"polycrap\" is a bit whiney, as I don\'t like synthetic racing.  

However, I stand by Curlin being a clear horse of the year, for me.  As a \"figure player\" I don\'t buy that he was not as good this year.  He was ridden conservatively (wide) by his jockey often this year, and spotted weight, so the finishes were closer than last year.  However, if you look at his sheet, he was about as fast this year (on dirt).

As to other point on this thread about a turf horse winning \"horse of the year\".  Certainly it happened but the difference between that and a poly horse winning is that Turf is viewed as a separate category.  There are \"turf champions\" and Breeders Cup races for turf specialists.  Right now, dirt and synthetic are viewed in one grouping.  Frankly, one way to remedy the problem would be to have a category (or categories) for synthetic horses.  Mixing them, as we do now, doesn\'t make a lot of sense.  Our triple Crown is on dirt, however all the west coast preps are on synthetic.  So, the west coast horses may or may not be able to run well in the triple crown.  The \"dirt\" breeders cup races will be run on either dirt or synthetic depending on the host site, and certain horses will be compromised.  It is more than a handicapping issue.  Heck, some people figured out the handicapping issue at the breeders cup this year (not this stubborn poster).  However, the \"fairness\" issue of horses having to move from surface to surface for major races like the triple crown and breeders cup isn\'t fair.

We can\'t prove this, but does anybody REALLY think that Henry the Navigator and Raven\'s Pass beat Curlin if the Breeders Cup was at a dirt site.  Heck, I know this won\'t sit well with our west coast people here and I can\'t prove this next statement, but I would bet a whole lot of money that Hysterical Lady would beat Zenyatta on a dirt track.  Not sure if they are both retiring and I hope not, as I would hope the Zenyatta owners would be as sporting as the Curlin owners and actually run Zenyatta out of state next year.  (yeah, I know she ran at Oaklawn once).  But even if she does run, I doubt she shows up at Saratoga or some other great track.  The BC races will be on synthetic again and she doesn\'t need to leave California.

Anyway, I guess went on enough.

[P-Dub]

Jimbo,

JB straightened me out, as well he should have. Thanks to both of you.

JB made a good point about races on the East Coast. I can\'t really blame them for keeping her \"local\", since the BC was local and she was undefeated.

However, she has nothing left to prove in California.  If she is as great as we all hope she is, she needs to take her act on the road. Belmont, Saratoga, etc..  have huge races for older distaffers.  She needs to show up and run.

I hate synthetics too.  But they\'re here, apparently to stay. So I tolerate them and deal with whatever circumstances come with them.

Appreciate your thoughts.

[JimP]

\"Grow the f--k up.\"

I don\'t have a dog in this fight, but I have to comment that I find that phraseology to be very interesting. I\'m sure that a book could be written on that single 4 word phrase. LOL.

[TGJB]

I\'m a New Yorker. We use the F word as a modifier. For actual cursing, we get extremely creative.

[Josephus]

Jimbo,

Synthetic horses \"unfairly\" challenged to run on dirt? Didn\'t Street Sense prep at Kee?  I think Hard Spun did too.  Col. John didn\'t run well at CD but he came off training on Pro-Ride to win the Travers and didn\'t a number of of synthetic horses this past season explode on dirt? If we have seen horses go from syn to dirt, why can\'t we expect GOOD or GREAT horses go from dirt to syn?

On your other points: I would take Zenyata and Cocoa Beach over Hystericalady at the 1&1/8, and yes I would take the euros over Curlin THIS YEAR ( granted, that is based on hindsight)  and I think he will be vulnerable if he goes to Japan. My point on Curlin at the top of this thread, is that he was at his best last year in the Preakness and has been lucky that no GI or GII  horses, except for the turf race at Bel. and the Classic, which he lost, have faced him this year.

If we are going to talk about \"fairness\", I think most the of the dirt races in this country are speed biased, especially on sealed and sloppy tracks and again, for the most part the winner is the one who de-accelerates least. I think turf is the most \"natural\" surface and the synthetic at SA (what we\'ve seen of it so far)  is next; I\'d put dirt, third.

[APny]

In the grand scheme of things does it really matter who gets the title horse of the year?  I\'ve been following racing since for a while and I couldn\'t tell you who was and wasn\'t \"horse of the year.\"  Why does it really matter?  No matter who gets it...we will all remember the candidates and the impressive races they all ran over time.

[jimbo66]

Josephus,

If you really think Henry the Navigator and Raven\'s Pass would beat Curlin on dirt, god bless.  I can only say that I wish I knew you, as I would like to play cards with you and book some of your horse action.  It wouldn\'t be close.

As for the preps you talk about.  STreet Sense ran like a dog on poly in his Keenland prep, which is why he was 9-2 and not 2-1 in the DErby.   Hard Spun was a different story, as many breeding experts said he would have been a better turf horse than dirt, so no surprise he ran well on poly.  

It is certainly debatable, but I don\'t think we have seen as many horses as you think \"explode\" when they moved from synthetic to dirt.  I won\'t rehash old ground, but if you search the threads, you will see posts about the relative \"compacted\" synthetic figures, and thus the fastest synthetic horses not actually getting figures near the fastest dirt horses.  So, the \"move up\", in some cases, can be related to the scale. (or at least that is a theory that a few people have and our host hasn\'t categorically disagreed - at least yet).

I accept your point on turf races, as I would agree that as a general statement, turf courses have less bias than dirt tracks.  But as I said, turf and dirt are distinctly different categories of races in the U.S..  Synthetic is \"grouped in\" with dirt, which to me is mixing apples and oranges.  What happens when one of the three triple crown races is on poly?

[Flighted Iron]

Jimbo66,

What happens when one of the three triple crown races is on poly?


Preposterous at best.(I hope you were not being rhetorical:)


With Respect,
mjs

[jma11473]

It\'s a topic to discuss. It doesn\'t \"matter\" more than anything else, but it\'s fun to see watch the races and debate who is best.

I\'d say Curlin. He traveled the world, took on all comers and beat, well, most of them. You don\'t have to go undefeated to be Horse of the Year. And while I know we\'re heading for a synthetic future, I still don\'t hold the Classic loss against Curlin as strongly as I would if it was on real dirt.

Zenyatta is a great horse, but stayed in her backyard. She\'d have had to go beyond what she did to prove she was best horse in the world. Best filly or mare on synthetic surfaces, yes, by far. I\'d give Curlin the big honor though.

[Michael D.]

Jim,

I\'d give Henry virtually no shot at beating Curlin on dirt. Raven might be bred better for dirt though. it was 13-1 vs 4-5 on synth - might have been 26-1 and 3-5 on dirt. even with Curlin clearly the more likely winner, I might have taken Raven at 26-1.

and Curlin would get my vote for horse of the year. he was simply awesome in Dubai, and ran big figures in three of the biggest grade 1 dirt races in the US. I believe the close margins in those races were a factor of trip and weight, not talent.  you\'re comparing the best dirt horse in the world to the best synth filly in the US. best dirt horse in the world wins in my book.

[jimbo66]

Michael,

We are in complete agreement then.  

I wish I would have been in complete agreement with your great call on Raven\'s Pass in the BC Classic!!!!  Instead, I somehow wound up on a backing up CAsino Drive, and ironically enough, a few tickets on Go Between, who was knocked out of the race by Casino Drive stopping like he was shot.  An ironic ending to a miserable (and stubborn) handicapping BC for me.......

[MO]

Now THAT quote is a CLASSIC and should be printed and framed like one of those plaques you see advertised in airline magazines. You know the ones I\'m talking about. They focus on one word and it\'s definition like \"Teamwork\", for example.

Jerry,

If it\'s OK with with you I\'m going to make one that I can take with me on road trips. It would clear up a lot of things with my bandmates.......LOL

[TGJB]

Jimbo-- while I\'m not claiming I fully understand the synth thing yet, if you look at the BC sheets when we put them up (later today, probably), you will see some big figures were run over Pro-Ride, and some big ones in previous races over poly (notably by the 3yo you bet in the Sprint). I don\'t think it\'s a question of scale.

Unrelated-- they announced yesterday that the 4 Aidan O\'Brien BC horses had run with lasix, but that he had not told the stewards, so it was not announced. Penalty? $2,500. Total, not each.