Breeders' Cup Thoughts

[P-Dub]

My girl and I had 4 cocktails at the Embassy cocktail hour, followed by a couple large hot sakes at Tokyo Wako. Needless to say, I have a nice little buzz going, it started at around 4pm this afternoon.

As for wagering, I hit the Marathon exacta and trifecta on Friday and not much else. Today, I was getting my eyes gouged until the Dirt Mile. Hit the winner and exacta. Genius that I am, I had a 4 horse tri box lined up using the 1-2-3 and was deciding between the 8 and 10. Do I really need to tell you which horse I used. Yeah, the 8. No worries, it only cost me around 3 grand.  

Met Smalltimer and his family today, really nice people. Enjoyed talking with Bill and talking about the races.

So what about Zenyatta. Dana, you say you are one of her biggest fans on this board.  Well then, welcome to the club. Smalltimer and I have touted this remarkable horse for quite awhile. You laid out a very convincing argument for HOY, something I have talked about for months. I\'ve said it before and I\'ll say it again. Rachel is fantastic.  However, who has she defeated?? Mediocre 3 YOs in the Preakness, and I\'ll say it yet again, what has ANY horse from that race done since?? Then its the Haskell, and I\'ll say it again, she won over a speed favoring track over a sloppy surface she adores. Funny how NOBODY mentions this, yet some of you go on ad nauseum regarding Z and synthetic surfaces. I guess tracks and or surfaces that favor a horse only matter when we talk about Zenyatta. Then we have the Woodward, where she was life and death to hold off Macho Again. Oh yeah, she beat Bullsbay too. Do you really want to compare the combined 3 fields she defeated, with the horses Zenyatta just defeated today?? You want to split HOY?? Fine. JUst don\'t tell me Rachel deserves it alone. Not after today.

Zenyatta gave a performance for the ages today. That was a slow pace, she was dead last, and she still won. Speed figs don\'t do this tremendous champion justice. Enough with the talk about Rachel\'s speed figs, or any other horse. Bottom line is this....she runs fast enough to win. Thats all that matters. This speed figure fixation to say this horse is better than that one, give me a break. I know its the only way some of you can come to grips with the fact a horse, lets say Sunday Silence, can drill a horse 3 times out of 4 yet somehow be looked at as inferior. Or in this case, Zenyatta. Magic numbers at their finest. When they create a new Eclipse award....\" The Eclipse Award for fastest sheet figures goes to...\" to determine the best horse, then you can use it to compare. Until then, I\'ll stick to the best way to compare horses.  Its called, lets see who gets to the wire first. Zenyatta has done it every time.

Now for my favorite subject. Lets see how many clowns on this forum want to bash Mike Smith today. Lets just get this out of the way...the next moron that wants to take a cheap shot at a Hall Of fame rider for allegedly \"always\" talking his horse wide should be forced to stand behind Quality Road the next time he acts up in the gate. I have given several examples of Smith taking horses up the rail, between horses, or cutting the corner to guide a horse to victory. These examples are always met with deafening silence. Its one thing to have an opinion, but to                   curl up and say nothing, to not even acknowledge that Smith indeed is a world class rider, when presented with evidence that he DOESN\"T ALWAYS take horses wide, these classless cowards would just rather just say nothing. Then after a little while, post more idiotic comments about taking horses wide. Well, today this guy is cashing a $300,000 check after giving the deserving HOY a world class ride. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, its better than the stuff that is currently in there, the stuff that makes some of you post ridiculously lame comments about \"going wide\".

Last thing, and this is for those of you that have cried for months about a synthetic BC. There were about 50,00 to 60,00 people at the track today that didn\'t care. Fantastic weather (or would you rather have another Monmouth slopfest?? George Washington would probably say no.), full fields, great finishes, favorites and longshots alike winning races, world\'s finest jockeys, this BC was fantastic.

I\'ve said my piece, and after all the crap I\'ve put up with all year from some of you guys regarding Zenyatta and Mikey, not many of you should blame me. I feel better now. Back to the Bay Area tomorrow, off to Hawaii Monday for a week.

I hope you guys enjoyed the racing this weekend, talk to you all later....

[Flighted Iron]

I know its the only way some of you can come to grips with the fact a horse, lets say Sunday Silence, can drill a horse 3 times out of 4 yet somehow be looked at as inferior.

 These two haven\'t raced against each other.Bad analogy.Like it or not Z is slower
on the sheets.That isn\'t the reason Rachel deserves HOY.Rachel did more this year.
Rachel is a throwback champion.She embodies the true champion spirit in the sense
that anything is possible and any individual who has the talent and gumption can
be a champion.The unfortunate part for Z re:HOY is her connections didn\'t have
that spirit.
 Z demonstrated yesterday that she truly is a great one!!She comes to run and it
doesn\'t matter who is in the field.Running home in approx. 23 for the final 1/4
was truly electrifying.I can only speak for myself that I feel a bit angry and
somewhat empty in the fact that these two never hooked each other.As a fan
I was deprived of an athletic endeavor for the ages.

 They\'ve both achieved greatness.Rachel\'s story however inspires the romance a
touch more.

Congratulations again!

mjs

[P-Dub]

Flighted Iron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know its the only way some of you can come to
> grips with the fact a horse, lets say Sunday
> Silence, can drill a horse 3 times out of 4 yet
> somehow be looked at as inferior.
>
>  These two haven\'t raced against each other.Bad
> analogy.

If you thought that was a bad analogy, then you completely miss my point. I\'m getting on a flight in a couple hours, so this will be it for awhile.

Sunday Silence was viewed as the inferior horse to Easy Goer, BASED ON SPEED FIGURES. This despite he won 3 out of 4 races when matched up against his rival. Zenyatta is viewed (by some) as inferior BASED ON SPEED FIGURES. This despite she has never been defeated.


>Like it or not Z is slower on the sheets.

Gee, that wouldn\'t have anything to do with turf/synthetics having slower numbers (a discussion for another time) than dirt. You sound like yet another person who is a slave to the almighty \"figure\". Races are run on the track, not on a piece of paper.

>That isn\'t the reason Rachel
> deserves HOY.Rachel did more this year.

The only thing she did more of this year was run in \"more\" races. Thats it.

> Rachel is a throwback champion.She embodies the
> true champion spirit in the sense
> that anything is possible and any individual who
> has the talent and gumption can
> be a champion.The unfortunate part for Z re:HOY is
> her connections didn\'t have
> that spirit.

You\'re kidding, right?? She just won a race populated by horses from all over the WORLD. Instead of running against the girls Friday, she took on the boys Saturday.  A performance some are calling perhaps the greatest moment in Breeders\' Cup history (debatable, sure, but totally accurate). But her connections didn\'t have that \"spirit\"? Embodies the true champion, gumption, blah blah blah. So Zenyatta doesn\'t have the talent to be a champion?? Beating horses at the Classic distance against horses from all over the world is somehow less impressive than say, I don\'t know, beating up on a bunch of 3 YOs nobody has heard from again (BTW, how did Mine That Bird do yesterday, the one RA held off by a length). Or beating Summer Bird over a slopfest, speed favoring track?  Or beating the vaunted MAcho Again (barely) and Bullsbay ( a horse that ran in the DIRT MILE for cripes sake). Movin on......


>  Z demonstrated yesterday that she truly is a
> great one!!She comes to run and it
> doesn\'t matter who is in the field.Running home in
> approx. 23 for the final 1/4
> was truly electrifying.I can only speak for myself
> that I feel a bit angry and
> somewhat empty in the fact that these two never
> hooked each other.As a fan
> I was deprived of an athletic endeavor for the
> ages.

Agree with the first part. As for the latter, nobody told Rachel or her connections she couldn\'t come. Rachel has won over a synthetic before, her owner instead wanted to pout over Curlin last year. Very sporting. Yet Zenyatta\'s connections are somehow painted as the bad guy, the reason they never met. OK.
>
>  They\'ve both achieved greatness.Rachel\'s story
> however inspires the romance a
> touch more.

Romance?? How? Because she beat 2nd rate 3 YOs, and 2nd rate older horses. If that inspires you, more power to you. I\'ll take the horse that has never been defeated, the one that took on any horse from the world that wanted to take her on. The one that delivered an electrifying stretch run that resonated with 60,000 fans on a glorious fall day at the Great Race Place. If you were at SAnta Anita Park yesterday, as I was fortunate enough to do, you witnessed history. Zenyatta OWNED that racetrack. The rousing cheers during the post parade, the cheers at her pre-race antics, and the thunderous roar as she stormed down the middle of the track. You want romance, that my friend, is romance.

We will beat this thing to death over the next few months. Rachel was the opening act, but Zenyatta is the closer.

[jimbo66]

Flighted Iron,

Agreed.  I think you have to leave the state of California to win HOY. Shipping to Churchill and skipping the race doesn\'t count. Rachel raced all over the place, outside her division against colts and older males.  On any DIRT track that a challenge was there, she met.

Zenyatta\'s connections waited in California, didn\'t beat a decent horse or race in a real race the entire year, then stepped up in the final race and proved that Zenyatta is a helluva horse.  The analogy that I would make is the boxer that loses the first 2.5 minutes of a round but then flurries at the end to try to win the judges scorecards.  

Rachel by a 2 to 1 margin for HOY.

It is a real shame there can\'t be a way for these two to race against each other in some kind of race somewhere.  This way all these posts back and forth become meaningless and the winner is decided on the track (dirt track that is).

Jim

[HP]

I am not really all that interested in Horse of the Year, but two obvious points...

One is, that was quite a field that Zenyatta beat yesterday.  I know I didn\'t think she could do it.  

Two is, in all of this hubbub I think you have to give these guys some credit for having a plan and seeing it through.  Plenty of pressure there and they were able to execute.  That\'s no small feat.  

I think it\'s a really tough call...but I would hate to think this was more a referendum on synth and strategic decisions by owners than a HOY contest.  

Maybe they should be co-winners...!  

HP

[rezlegal]

When analyzed both horses were brilliantly managed from both a business and racing perspective. Until yesterday Zerella had NOT beaten a field of more than 8 (making yesterdays performance that much more impressive) and never (still) left the comfort of Southern Cal. and the synthetic tracks. Sheriffs and Moss were masterful in concluding they had nothing to lose by running yesterday and the decision they made (whether tactical or as good sportsmen)was good for the game. RA was equally well managed-after the Oaks Jackson took a shot at the Preakness (with minimal down side risk) and thereafter picked out strategic spots-not that much in the filly triple crown race she ran in or Haskell and the Woodward was sort of the real dirt equivalent of yesterday. The one race she avoided (as Jerry Bailey was quick to point out without acknowledging that Zenyatta\'s connections were equally tactical))was the Travers which I suggest was a far more dififcult race to win than the Woodward. Jackson should not be crticized for refusing to run yesterday over a surface that may or may not be a footnote in racing history-any more than Moss/Sheriffs should be crticized for never leaving California. One final note-RA\'s numbers-faster than Zenyatta\'s-were numbers she pretty much made on her own-she set or pressed the pace in all her races, was not reliant (for better or worse)on a set up from someone else to determine her \"fig\" and ground loss played very little or no role in the determination of her minus 3 and (if memeory serves me correctly) her minus 4. They are two brilliant horses we were privileged to witness in the same year but comparing them is a bit futile and unresolvable.

[Uncle Buck]

Hey Jimbo. How can you say Zen didn\'t beat a decent horse all year and be taken seriously. Did you not see Friday\'s Ladies Classic?

[jimbo66]

Buck,

I saw Friday\'s race.  I don\'t want to redboard, but Life Is Sweet gave me the pick-4 that turned the two day affair into a \"losing\" weekend, but not the \"crushed\" weekend I had last year in the BC.  Life is Sweet is a pretty good  SYNTHETIC horse.  She beat Music Note (a dirt only horse), Mushka (a turf horse), Cocoa Beach (an out of form horse) and Careless Jewel (a rank, uncontrollable horse in the race, and also likely a dirt horse).

Buck, the theme was the same all weekend, just as it was last year.  Average synthetic and turf runners beat good dirt horses all weekend.

Any good handicapper that takes a step back and analyzes the weekend, emotions aside, should realize that this is a completely different game on the Pro-Ride and synthetic surfaces.  And for most, that is not a good thing.  Gushing over plastic performances is tough for me to do, and tough for a lot of traditional horse players to do.  Listen to the comments of the Beyers, Crists, Serlings and other writers of this game.  The theme is the same.  

But Zenyatta did her thing yesterday.  And I agree with those that say her one dirt performance was one of her best and it is too bad that the connections didn\'t try a more enterprising campaign before yesterday.  Whoever wrote that we might have had 100,000 in the stands to see Zenyatta vs Rachel is right.  Put those two in a Churchill Downs race, add in Careless Jewel, Music Note and couple of lesser mares and you have one helluva race.  Oh well, I can only imagine what might have been.

[sighthound]

But you know ... if handicappers didn\'t know SA was synthetic going in, they\'d not notice.   They would just play it as they do any other track along the day - familiarize yourself with the track idiosyncracies.

Yes, I agree some horses don\'t run on synthetic as they do on dirt - but those horses probably don\'t run on turf, either.  

We all know that the dirt tracks are nowhere near alike.  Look at Churchill vs OakLawn vs Belmont vs Saratoga.  Either are the good old turf courses all alike (CA vs Arlington vs Belmont vs Churchill)  There are trainers that won\'t take their horses to certain dirt tracks, as they know their horse won\'t handle the track.

It\'s just another track to learn, if you want into those pools.  And this weekend, this track played pretty darn predictably and stayed pretty much the same throughout the two days, don\'t you guys think so?

[Dana666]

I\'d buy you a drink if I were in Hawaii! Great post. Read the latest on my thread, I go into more hidden points that won\'t get brought out in any number.
You could go back a long way and find my posts on Z. I knew as you did what we were looking at from early on. I have to stop myself now from posting b/c I can\'t take it anymore. If I have to keeping arguing her greatness, it really is a waste of time.

[P-Dub]

Dana,
I know you have been positive on her for a long time. Nice to see that a few of us Can wade through all of the absolute nonsense tossed around on this board. GLad yo enjoyed the weekend as much as I dd.

[Flighted Iron]

You\'re kidding, right?? She just won a race populated by horses from all over the WORLD. Instead of running against the girls Friday, she took on the boys Saturday. A performance some are calling perhaps the greatest moment in Breeders\' Cup history (debatable, sure, but totally accurate). But her connections didn\'t have that \"spirit\"? Embodies the true champion, gumption, blah blah blah. So Zenyatta doesn\'t have the talent to be a champion?? Beating horses at the Classic distance against horses from all over the world is somehow less impressive than say, I don\'t know, beating up on a bunch of 3 YOs nobody has heard from again (BTW, how did Mine That Bird do yesterday, the one RA held off by a length). Or beating Summer Bird over a slopfest, speed favoring track? Or beating the vaunted MAcho Again (barely) and Bullsbay ( a horse that ran in the DIRT MILE for cripes sake). Movin on......

Zenyatta is a champion.Older Female.Your opinion is from quoting others opnions
regarding her performance and then calling it debatable?The debate for me will
be over when I see the fig.Both horses beat everyone they faced this year.Rachel
still wins HOY hands down.

[Flighted Iron]

Great analogy.

[P-Dub]

Dude, would you get a friggin clue.

Its debatable as to whether or not that was the greatest moment in BC history.

Its not debatable that she is one of the all time greats.

Now you want to look at a figure to make a judgement?? Because as we all know, synthetics and dirt figures are easily comparable. Right.

This subject gets more ridiculous with each post from guys like this.

Do any of you even consider the caliber of competition that Rachel faced?? Its not even comparable, that field Zenyatta just dusted is much better than any horse Rachel\'s connections have even thought about racing against.

Do you act senseless on purpose, or for your sake are you just fooling around?

To quote Trevor......Un-Be-liev-able. Sheesh.

[Flighted Iron]

The people choose their champions and sometimes are rewarded.Rachel brought
that feeling everywhere she went.Super talent that left everything on all the
different tracks everywhere she went.Left senior citizens of the race community
jubilant everywhere she went.All citizens jubilant for that matter everywhere
she went.Rachel was racings champion this year everywhere she went.