One more thing--NYC

[richiebee]

NYC:

One aspect of handicapping that you seem to focus on is timing between starts and
horses getting proper rest, especially after big efforts.

There has always been a debate as to whether Secretariat set a track record at
Pimlico in his Preakness win. Lets say, arguendo, that he did set the track
record.

That is 3 track record setting performances in 5 weeks. It is conceivable that
he could have run a second or so faster in his Belmont but I do not want to think
about that.

The stakes records still stand at Churchill and Belmont; I am not sure about
Pimlico.

How many runners ran in all 3 Triple Crown races this year?

Our host, I am assuming the best handicapper that Dartmouth ever produced, said
earlier in the day that there is a distinction between \"fast\" and \"great\". In the
case of Secretariat said distinction is unnecessary-- Secretariat was both.

[nyc1347]

richie -

if big brown ran a 1w1w trip in the derby he wouldve crushed that derby record time.  also if he ran those 3 consecutive tops negative numbers in the triple crown races he wouldve most likely been a triple crown winner.  that didnt happen cause the timing was not there as he showed regression in the preakness..something secretariat clearly didnt show.  the track and races secretariat ran on were blazing fast ask JB about it.. and who cares about secretariats triple crown races really?  Point given if im not mistaken ran a faster race then Secretariat did in the belmont!  what does THAT say about secretariats performance?  its blown up into something great when he ran against NO ONE that race!

[richiebee]

Point Given ran faster than Secretariat in the Belmont on what scale?

Raw Time. Point Given 2:26.2
          Secretariat 2:24

Ragozin   Point Given ?
          Secretariat ?

Beyer:    No Beyer numbers were given for Secretariat\'s Belmont. When asked to go
          back and try to extrapolate what Sec\'s Beyer number was, he replied that
          he would have awarded Secretariat the highest Beyer # ever given.

TG #      Point Given  Negative 2³
          Secretariat Would be interesting to know where JB was in June of 1973,
                       but he wasn\'t making performance figures for the public.

NYC--    I aint arguing no more because, as I said, if it happened before 2000
         you are not aware of it and too close minded to try to learn about it.

Big Brown and Big Red in the same post? All I need to know about your view of the Racing world.

[trackjohn]

Richie:

  As a fellow ex-Staten Islander...I couldn\'t agree with you more...to compare what Secretariat did in his Triple Crown efforts with ANY horse that has run in the past 15 years is absurd.

John

[jbelfior]

Sham would have dusted Big Brown.


Good Luck,
Joe B.

[covelj70]

Hey Richiebee,

I went to Dartmouth as well, what gives man.....lol!!!!!

[richiebee]

When I think back about it, I do not remember if Jerry said he went to Dartmouth.
I\'m fairly sure he said his brother did. My memory is not what it used to be.

JB-- if you went to Harvard, sorry about the slight; if that\'s the case I\'ll rank
you in front of the 2 other Harvard grads.

[nyc1347]

Was there even a \"run up\" in the 70s???!  THAT would play a HUGE factor into all of this

[moosepalm]

Are those other two Harvard grads, LR and AB?  If so, I thought the latter only \"attended.\"

As for JB going to Dartmouth, before putting money down, I\'d want to know whether Rockingham Park had simulcasting then, and if so, what was the distance from there to Hanover.  Kind of like Rick Pitino only entertaining offers from teams in close proximity to a race track.

[nyc1347]

http://www.secretariat.com/past_performance.htm

http://community.drf.com/files/ghostzapper-1.pdf

[jimbo66]

One thing that strikes me is the spacing for Ghostzapper.  To me, he might be the protoype/poster child for today\'s breed.  He ran once on 3 weeks rest, the rest spaced out.  His HOTY season had only 4 races in it.  Frankel was a sheets user from what I recall and he certainly managed Ghostzapper extremely well.  That said, he was dominant in those wins from 6 furlongs to the classic distance of 1 1/4 (and didn\'t seem to be slowing down at the end of the BC Classic).

Quality Road reminds me of Ghostzapper, in his flexibility to run well at multiple distances.  (so far from 6 furlongs to 1 1/8, we\'ll see about the classic distance later this year).  But he has that brilliant speed that GZ had.  I hope he hangs around for awhile.

[miff]

nyc,

Thanks for posting Sec pps\', can you post Dr.Fager and think of what the figs would look like, esp with the weight carried and spotted. Fooling with some dated stuff, TG could have Fager in the neg -7 range and Sec\'s Belmont was neg -8 1/2, if JB would have been in agreement with Beyer type figs.

It\'s obvious that certain horses today, like Ghostzaper,may be in the \"as fast as\" category but faster than the above 2, no way.

Incidentally, yes there was a run up years ago, no the dirt was not thinner(different composition, more clay = faster surface) but impossible to know if surfaces were generally much faster than today.

Yes, they scraped the track more when Sec,Fager ran than today.

Mike

[alm]

NYC, this \'debate\' is becoming moronic.

So much has changed in so many areas over the years, that comparison is ridiculous.  

Drugs, for example.  Silent Tom Smith got ruled off for squirting an inhaler up a horse\'s nose with a garden-insect pump spray...thank you Seabiscuit.  I am sure Secretariat had the best money could buy, too.  But Ghostzapper had pharmaceuticals and access to blood doping that were not available to any horse back in the 1970\'s (and don\'t tell me Bobby Frankel raced him on water and oats or I\'ll throw up.)  

As for scrapping tracks, please spare me.  Every day at every track something is done and for you to say you know what was done thirty years ago is plain wrong.  You don\'t!

Now let me sound like a moron.  You believe in Ghostzapper and I believe in the Horse Gods.  You\'re on the short end on this, buddy, and I promise you they will smite you for the ridiculous things that you\'ve written here.  Secretariat was their perfect child.