Random thought but does anyone

[miff]

Cov,

Never said you were an idiot,never implied it and racing not going away tomorrow but is continuing to slide downwards.New York guys don\'t hide behind screen names, if I had something to say to you I would,I don\'t.

Racings only hope would be if 30 state racing venues\"partnered\" and that will never happen.To understand racing in this country, you have to understand the financial side. During the bidding process for the NYRA franchise I was involved with one of the consulting firms and saw unbiased financial projections re New York Racing(Nyra and OTB). They were disastrous to say the least and hence no serious bidders for a captive NY multi billion dollar business.
The entrepreneurs walked, the fortune 500 never even considered it, brokesters and political charlatins made up most of the bidders that showed up.I believe you may be New York Wall Street(I was for 30 years) so just stand back and think about the whys.

With politically appointed stooges and clueless racing execs calling the shots, along with the old fools in their Jockey Club fiefdoms, racing is terminal, boutique meets at best as AL said.If you can bet on what I just said do it, I\'d \"short\" racing for all I have if the same people stay in control.

Voiceless players tired, stalwart bettors that I know in NY, CALI, KY and Fl for years and years are wavering.

Thats my side, you obviously know another side which I am not familiar with.In any event very good luck to you.


Mike

[TGJB]

Some interesting posts on this string, notably from Jim and Mike. But here\'s the question-- how is a \"good sale\" (prices for horses going up) good for the industry in general?

I know it\'s life or death for many in Kentucky, I know some of them and feel for them. But the breeding industry is NOT part of the racing industry, it\'s a separate industry that supplies product to it. The more it costs to buy horses, the tougher it is for owners in OUR industry to survive. It\'s simple math-- a zero sum game.

Purses in North America are around $1 billion annually, expenses twice that-- without counting the cost of the horses themselves. That means owners as a group are losing far more than 100% of their investment.

Betting on racing is the original derivative-- we are not involved in the event, but our outcome is dependent on the outcome of the event. Our betting pays for purses and everything else, including in the end the cost of the horses (no purses, no point in owning one). It\'s a gambling industry, not a sport. In order for this industry to get back on a firm footing the Kentucky breeders-- who sit on every damn board and have tremendous influence-- have to get out of the way or get ousted. They know nothing about our business, and have run it into the ground, As long as they are calling the shots we are screwed.

[alm]

JB

I am not taking issue with your core argument...you know darn well what you are commenting about.

However:

1. There has never been a period in which purses equalled the expenses of getting horses to the races, so what?

2. Purses have generally improved over the years, but the number of horses pursuing purses has declined and isn\'t likely to grow again, so the situation has improved overall if you are an owner.  No?

3. I\'m not sure what you mean when you say the breeding industry is not part of the racing industry.  It may have its own financial dynamics, but are you exempting breeder-owners from the equation?  I\'ve bred most of the horses I have raced, not all, and consider my outcome pretty important...to myself.

You are probably right that big, commercial breeders ought to keep their noses out of the gambling side of the industry, but isn\'t the fact that we have a federal system as big a deterrant to building a rational system for the country as any idiocy the breeders bring to the equation?

[martoon]

JB...

I love that \"original derivitive\" line.  That\'s classic and true.  I\'d say MOST of the race horse owners i know are not expert betters at all and in it not even realizing the industry (gambling) they are in.  But while that\'s true you could also say NFL football, College football and certainly the NCAA basketball tournament are more than ever dominated by gambling but they have still retained their identity as major Sporting events.  In fact they are much bigger gambling enterprises than horse racing but they are smart enough to exploit gambling to grow their sporting brands enormously.  The only differences really are organization.  The only part of horse racing that actually looks organized is the triple crown and most would agree that for those couple months and 3 races Horse Racing actually resonates as a sport to the public at large.  You\'re also right that the breeders are killing the game.  Once the industry flipped to breed to sell, it was all downhill.  How can you trust an industry where the creators of the product (the breeders) don\'t even trust their product enough to keep and race them in the industry for which they were intended??!!

The betting industry side of racing could survive and maybe thrive on 1 race card a day.  That\'s all you need when you can bet from anywhere.  Other than the state bred programs, that\'s kind of where it\'s heading...

[TGJB]

Alm--

1-- The \"so what\" is that anything that reduces the cost for owners helps the game.

2-- Expenses have gone up at least as fast as purses, and the cost of horses (taking a long term view) has as well.

3-- If you are breeding to race you are indeed part of the industry. I\'m talking about commercial breeders (and the percentage of homebreds vs. those bought to race has gone way down over the years).

4-- Leaving politics aside, this is actaully a case where Federal intervention COULD (not would) be a plus. Right now there is no governing body, and nobody with power ever wants to give it up, so there are dozens of roadblocks to progress. If anything positive is ever going to happen someone is going to have to take charge and crack a few skulls.

[martoon]

Jim.. Good luck at Philly!  i really think the state breds are the only way to go for new owners to the game.  Running in restricted races against some \"slow rats\" is much preferable to open company.  Plus state bred stakes races, breeders awards if you breed, and if you have a good one the condition books are stacked in your favor for the open races.  For example in most places you can win an unlimited number of state bred races and still enter the horse in open NWX1 and start your conditions all over again.  I kind of hate the state breds for betting as much as most on this board, but as an owner I think it\'s the only way to make financial sense of ownership.  And you still have to be lucky to make it work...  A ton of fun but a very tough biz or hobby.

[TGJB]

Martoon-- the difference is that the NCAA and NFL don\'t get their revenue directly from gambling, racing does-- it\'s virtually the only source.

I\'ve said this before, but it\'s f--king astounding that considering the above bettors are not even consulted about things like takeout raises, track surface changes, etc. Can anyone think of any other large industry that does not do market analysis or focus groups? The industry going in the crapper is not just some event happening on its own due to outside world forces-- it\'s the direct result of the actions and inactions of those in power.

[martoon]

Jerry, the horse owners need to organize their own racing series.  The tracks are bad partners for the locals because they make more from 365 day simulcast than their own race cards so they and the ADW\'s don;t want to give up those fees where they are raping the industry.  Racing could generate Sports league type money but the owners can\'t get control.  Now more than ever is the time since racing is now a tv studio-computer screen type sport (and betting medium) instead of a spectator sport.   And all the great parts of racing gets crapped out by the clutter.  When Mountaineer is racing 52 weeks a year that is just a make work job for a few horsemen to survive.  Nobody is making any money at these small handle small purse tracks.

The bettors need a much better paradigm, but their objectives and needs are much different than the horse owners.  There is plenty enough to go around but the bet takers are stealing it all...  The owners and bettors don\'t have any problems with each other I don\'t think...

[martoon]

Jim & Mike,  One other point on these state breds.  I bred a few in New Jersey last couple years even though I\'m closer to PA.  NJ had a bigger purses for state breds even before the elite (sic) meet.  And would you believe they only dropped 400 foals there last couple years where PA and NY had in the thousands.  So not nearly as much competition even for a state bred slow rat.  You\'re only competing with roughly a total pool of 200 of each sex!  Throw out the really slow ones and the hurt ones etc.. and not much left.  If you can\'t win a piece there your horse definitely does not deserve it.  That all sounded good until the governor threw NJ racing under the bus.  And he had the audacity to announce he was trashing racing in the middle of the successful elite meet and before the Haskell!  Thanks for the help Gov!

Anybody want to buy a nicely bred NJ bred?

[miff]

Martoon,

If the NJ governor throws racing under the bus after the successful Monmouth meet, then NJ racing is RIP on many levels. In spite of what the various Horsemen groups are saying,without State backing and casino money there is no business model that works in the current racing environment.

In NY, the once enormously powerful friend of racing in Albany,former State Senator Joe Bruno is in the slammer for 2 years on federal charges. Would not be breeding too many crooked legged NY bred slow rat mares in my upstate back yard.


Mike