Beyer and Zenyatta

[TGJB]

PDub-- \"I\'m making a point about how certain racehorses are perceived\".

You\'re kidding about that, right? Other than by me, have you heard anyone say RA was the best filly of all time, or the best horse of the last 25 years, or any of the other stuff that\'s been out there about Zenyatta?

[P-Dub]

What I\'m saying JB, is that her races never received the scrutiny that Z\'s races have.

When she won the Preakness or some other races, NOTHING was discussed about competition or racing surfaces. That Preakness field wasn\'t very good.  She got FULL credit for doing something that had not been done in around 100 years or so. It was a tremendous performance despite the competition. 13 post, pressing the pace, outstanding. RA is a phenomenal horse, no doubt.

When Zenyatta wins the BC Classic, becoming the first female horse to do so, EVERYTHING was written about track surface and competition.  A tough field before the race was relegated to one excuse after another after the race, making it sound like she beat up on ALW horses on a Thursday afternoon. All of a sudden, accomplishing this feat that had never been done before was no big deal.

HOY I really don\'t care about.  Anything put to a vote is subject to biases and subjectivity.  Its why I view the Pro Football HOF as a joke.  Ken Stabler (5 consecutive league championship appearances, 1 SB title), Cliff Branch (3 time SB winner, preeminent deep threat of the 70\'s, stats better than some inducted), and Ray Guy (Greatest punter of all time) are excluded.  Bob Griese and Fran Tarkenton are included. James Lofton and Bob Hayes are included. Not that some of these guys aren\'t deserving, but how are they in and the others aren\'t??  Same with any awards show.  And the BCS.....but I digress.

[TGJB]

First of all, it\'s hard to believe Stabler isn\'t in the HOF, let alone that Bob Hayes is.

I have no idea what you are basing the Preakness bias thing on, but they ran it over the same track they always do, and it\'s often the weakest TC race. What\'s your point? If the issue was, was Rachel\'s Preakness a better performance (or more historical or whatever) than Zenyatta\'s 2009 BC win (or some other individual race) I could see the relevance. But that\'s never been the argument, even when the issue was R vs. Z. It was whether the totality of Rachel\'s 2009 campaign was better than the totality of Zenyatta\'s. I made that case here last year at length and I\'m not interested in making it again. But you are DEAD WRONG about there being no discussion about level of competition. I made the case based not on ability but on accomplishment, and I went into a long and detailed examination of the competition each faced. Look it up.

[smalltimer]

TGJB,

I already said earlier that Blame deserves to be HOTY.  Period.  If he wins, it is deserved.  If Z gets the nod, people will holler but that\'s tough shit since we\'re not casting any votes here. Far as I\'m concerned any 6 year old mare running against the best male dirt horses available is unheard of. Had Z gotten there, it would have been no contest, but she was beaten by a deserving champion.  

Goldikova?  I\'ve seen her run twice.  Devastating turn of foot.  Gonna be back as an older, older mare again.  That\'s why I\'m a fan of hers.  She\'s the type of animal I can be a fan of cause she doesn\'t close up shop and head to the breeders shed 30 minutes after her last race at age 3 or 4.  How could anyone not be a fan of hers? (See the Zenyatta connection?)  But as strictly a turf mile specialist?  If Z is eliminated because of her affinity for plastic, the same must apply to Goldikova.  HOTY, no way.

That\'s my take on the issue.

Have a good one guys.

[jimbo66]

Z-Fans must be in the holiday spirit already.  I thought for sure that TGJB invoking the words \"Pepper\'s Pride\" was going to lead to a backlash of posts, and eventually lead to at least a 30 day ban for P-Dub......

Jim

[kensharkey]

u mean the scarecorwo?

[P-Dub]

kensharkey Wrote:
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> u mean the scarecorwo?


Nice spelling genius.

[P-Dub]

kensharkey Wrote:
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> p-dub is a complete idiot. simple


I guess if I bet on the 13 horse, thinking he would save ground, and then blame my terrible bet on the jockey, that would make me a genius. Got it brainchild.

[MonmouthGuy]

When P-Dub called Summer Bird a \"second rate 3YO\" he lost all credibility in this discussion IMHO.

[Footlick]

Hi Mr Brown- I have a question about your statement.  You said that Goldikova was a better horse based on figures than Zenyatta.  I was under the assumption, and maybe mistakenly, that synthetic and grass figures were fairly similar given the pace structure of the races and the relative similarities in how the races are run.  With that, Goldikova has run one negative figure in her career and Zenyatta has run 12.  I know you said  in  parenthesis especially against other grass horses, but I was wondering how the figures supported that conclusion.  I don\'t want to be annoying, and I\'m really tired of the Zenyatta debate, as much of a fan as I am of her, but I found myself trying to figure this statement out looking at the figures and I couldn\'t so I thought that I was missing something.  Thanks for your patience.

[P-Dub]

MonmouthGuy Wrote:
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> When P-Dub called Summer Bird a \"second rate 3YO\"
> he lost all credibility in this discussion IMHO.

So you found one good horse Monmouth.  Of course, the slop and speed bias didn\'t help her at all right??  

This from the same guy that discredits the Classic field Z won, of course after finding out she won. Nice.  I mean, Summer Bird was in that field too.  She beat nothing that day, remember??

You questioning someone else\'s credibility.  Ok Monmouthsharkey.

[TGJB]

Foot-- essentially, Goldikova is faster relative to grass horses than Z is to dirt horses, even with her top in the BC, and relative to the number of races run there are more negative figures run on synth than on grass, by a lot. The synth stuff is irrelevant in this discussion overall, as far as I\'m concerned-- there aren\'t enough top horses who run on it (let alone run well on it) to qualify as a \"division\". Goldikova was taking on and usually beating males in a place where grass racing is it, and everything else is an afterthought.

[MonmouthGuy]

You are entitled to believe that Zenyatta beats Summer Bird at 10F on dirt.  I don\'t.

[Rich Curtis]

P Dub wrote:

\"good luck Rich. You\'re never gonna win this discussion.\"

That\'s the whole idea, P Dub. This board presents perfect conditions for us to get a hostile reception. A NY website. Overrepresented by New Yorkers. Sheet handicappers. Moderated by the person who uncovered Rachel. Perfect.

Nietzsche said that you don\'t attack an idea where it\'s weak. You attack an idea where it\'s strong.

And my shrink says that Nietzsche trumps Freud.

[TGJB]

I guess Karl Rove read Nietzsche.

Is your shrink the drill sergeant from the commercials?