Dutrow Hearing

[PonyBologna]

colt Wrote:
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> \"it\'s the shoes\"... that\'s the typical response
> you get from these move-up trainers....


When did Mars Blackmon become a horse trainer?

[Caradoc]

I got one better, and unfortunately it is true.  Mitchell gave an interview several years ago indicating that Jesus gave him some help on deciding which horses to claim.  Not kidding.  Hay, oats, water and Jesus, apparently.

[miff]

Yeah but Gastroguard, a deworming, a better blacksmith, better nutrition, a tooth float, a better morning exercise rider, kinder care in the stable, a better fitting bit,joint tapping,hyperberic chambers and massages have nothing to do with it.It\'s ONLY illegal drugs that move up horses.


Mike

[Caradoc]

Mike: No one is saying that.  Those things all matter.  A horse I owned several years ago turned around simply because he finally got a good dentist. His prior dental care was horrible.  But take my example, the horse that was put up in the race Monday.  Almost impossible on straight horsemanship and the other stuff you mention does that horse move up six or seven points leaving the Carla Gaines barn.  No way, no how.  If the horse had been claimed off Librado Barocio we wouldn\'t be having this conversation.

It\'s not a black or white world.  Some of these guys could be good trainers AND using something.  Back in the day, Mullins actually claimed a couple of horses off Frankel, horses that Frankel himself had moved up mysteriously in that period early in the decade Jerry references.  Those horses continued to perform well.  If Mullins was nothing more than a juicing ignoramus, that could not have happened.

[TGJB]

Yeah, and the only ones who know about those things are certain guys. And they forget them sometimes, which is why a guy like Mullins was a 35% trainer, then a 9% trainer.

Other guys, like Scott Lake, know about those things in the Mid-Atlantic states, but forget them when they come to NY. And this guy Guerrero at Pha, he knew them, then he forgot them, now he remembered again.

[miff]

You conveniently left out that Mullins lost his top owner during the financial crisis and is at 24per cent with no stock to speak of.

Guys cheat but not nearly as much as the Kool Aid drinker thinks.

Pupye and Carava,really?

[Niall]

After reading so many passionate responses I am certain that my erstwhile camel will spend some time on the farm getting some R&R and maybe a visit from Bartolo Colon\'s Dr, and be ready to carry a whole bunch of Saratoga straw !! For the most part we are all educated people participating in a pastime that is rigged. After reading some of the news articles about the hearing I felt that the policy makers are BEGGING us not to play ... But play we will !! The financial markets are rigged as well and yet I play that game too ... Every now and again we need someone in our corner that will give us a fighting chance ...

As an aside, when looking to the Belmont Stakes stongly consider the Jocks involved. Specifically who likes to save ground ... It is more so a jockeys race than many others. Prado have a mount?

[TGJB]

Mike-- I\'m trying to be polite, but you are trying my patience.

I don\'t care what clients Mullins has, or his win percentage, I only use that to have a common language for discussion with guys like you. I look at the figures these guys get compared to the ones other guys get out of the same stock.

The basic issue is really that of who the vet is, but because that info is not published we have to go with the trainers.

[miff]

JB,

I don\'t agree that at times a new trainer can\'t legitimately move up horses. Arnold Zetcher,for years, had most of his stock with Mac Anally,I think. they did very little running/winning. He moved his stock to Baffert, maybe last few years, and the results are dramatically better TG figs including graded stakes wins.

So, by your logic, Baffert is a cheat.


Mike

[TGJB]

Yeah, I\'m that simple. I wouldn\'t look at all the other Baffert horses too.

[miff]

Would never say that JB, you did.Incidentally, unless you did not notice, Baffert went on a huge tear earlier this year with his whole barn.

[Caradoc]

Mike: That also coincided with the Santa Anita meet, and going back to dirt.  There might be nothing more to it than that.  Baffy is still not completely comfortable on the synthetics.

On the McAnally thing: He\'s been a great trainer over the years but it\'s no secret that the fastball isn\'t quite there anymore.  Those horses may have shown improvement going to any trainer at the top of their game.

[miff]

Car,

See your point, but I\'m very convinced that trainers are like appples in a barrel. I don\'t believe Wayne Lukas,Mac Anally or many others suddenly forgot how to train.I\'m convinced the horse is 90% of the equation, the vet 7%, the trainer 3%.There are only great horses imo not great trainers.

Mike

[TGJB]

If we ever get a list of the horses Allday worked on we\'ll take a look at that 7% theory.

Listen, There\'s this conversation and then there\'s the serious, far more sophisticated one. a) Looking at figures gives you a much more accurate picture than win %, and b) there are things I KNOW. Factually. Not all of which I can say here. Like, for example, what a vet told the Jockey Club committee about the things HE had done.

[miff]

\"a) Looking at figures gives you a much more accurate picture than win %\"


...agree if the figs were backed by science or at least in consistent agreement. For example, the Preakness from one end to the other between you, Beyer and Rags are 10 lengths apart.How does one get a good handle on exactly what represents \"a much more accurate picture\".

Mike