Rapid Redux - Horse Of The Year

[P-Dub]

sekrah Wrote:
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> Oh definently happy I started the thread.  The
> more people educated on what a fraud the 2010 HOY
> Award was, and how overrated the \"great\" Zenyatta
> was, the better.


And you call other comments asinine.

You have every right to question the HOY voting.

Calling Zenyatta overrated makes you the clubhouse leader in the asinine dept.

Give it a rest.  Breeders\' Cup in less than a week.

[sekrah]

Zenyatta doesn\'t amount to a pimple on Skip Away\'s ass, and how much media coverage did he get from the idiotic nightly news programs? Probably 1/200th the media coverage she got.   Calling her overrated is asinine?   It\'s the 100% truth.

[P-Dub]

sekrah Wrote:
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> Zenyatta doesn\'t amount to a pimple on Skip Away\'s
> ass, and how much media coverage did he get from
> the idiotic nightly news programs? Probably
> 1/200th the media coverage she got.   Calling her
> overrated is asinine?   It\'s the 100% truth.

Ok pal, just take the last word already so we can move on.

[Funny Cide]

sekrah Wrote:
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> Zenyatta doesn\'t amount to a pimple on Skip Away\'s
> ass, and how much media coverage did he get from
> the idiotic nightly news programs? Probably
> 1/200th the media coverage she got.   Calling her
> overrated is asinine?   It\'s the 100% truth.

Overrated?  Yes, by some.  But you\'re as bad as those extremists with your own extremist opinion, just opposite.

[TGJB]

Let\'s wrap this up. Given the public perception that Zenyatta was one of the all time greats, there is no question she is wildly overrated-- her record was inflated by synthetics and running against doormats.

Was she very good? Of course. Consitent? Incredibly so. But the issue of overrated or not goes to EXACTLY what we do here-- measure ability. Comparing ability to accomplishment determines whether something is rated properly, overrated, or underrated. Zenyatta isn\'t anywhere near the top of the list in terms of figures by a female (let alone a colt) just since I\'ve been doing this.

Again, that doesn\'t mean she wasn\'t good, even arguably great, when you combine ability with consistency. But that\'s a different question.

[Funny Cide]

TGJB Wrote:
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> Let\'s wrap this up. Given the public perception
> that Zenyatta was one of the all time greats,
> there is no question she is wildly overrated-- her
> record was inflated by synthetics and running
> against doormats.
>
> Was she very good? Of course. Consitent?
> Incredibly so. But the issue of overrated or not
> goes to EXACTLY what we do here-- measure ability.
> Comparing ability to accomplishment determines
> whether something is rated properly, overrated, or
> underrated. Zenyatta isn\'t anywhere near the top
> of the list in terms of figures by a female (let
> alone a colt) just since I\'ve been doing this.
>
> Again, that doesn\'t mean she wasn\'t good, even
> arguably great, when you combine ability with
> consistency. But that\'s a different question.


That\'s not a different question -- that goes to the heart of her ability.  Name the other horses who put together a string of 19 wins with better overall numbers.  Can\'t do it?  Give us the horses who put together a string of 12 wins with better numbers.

Numbers don\'t tell everything.  How much did you credit her for the queen\'s plates she was wearing and obvious inability to grab the track early on in the Classic at CD?

[P-Dub]

Ability is a relative term JB.

Last year you said there were 6 horses to use against Zenyatta.

She beat them all except for 1 by a nose.

There is more to the term ability than a speed/performance figure.

If this board wants to discuss performance figures between horses, thats one thing.

To label it the be all end all concerning greatness and legacies, thats different. The guy who started this thread came here to stir up crap, and he succeeded.  

According to your figures, people here labeled her a bet against several times.  She still won.

She was a marginal contender to hit the board last year.  She almost won the damn race, despite what every one saw, which was a horse very uncomfortable with the track early on.  Some of your most respected and successful users said this.  She put in one of the most exhilarating and courageous stretch runs you can imagine.  Thats ability. The ability to handle whatever adversity comes your way and somehow perform.

How many fast horses, like a Quality Road (a horse BTW that was supposed to dust Zenyatta, twice,  because he had faster figures. Where did that ability laden horse end up??), can\'t reproduce those same fast figures because things didn\'t go their way??  

Greatness isn\'t a performance figure. It can aid the discussion, but it isn\'t the definitive aspect of determining greatness, or if someone is overrated.

Anyone who uses figures as the sole basis to determine that this horse isn\'t great or \"overrated\", is looking at things in an extremely narrow minded way.

[TGJB]

And after that race we were able to give her a figure. And able to compare that figure to those run by someone like Havre De Grace. And neither of you guys is listening-- you are having a different conversation.

This goes to the question we discussed about baseball teams, and you could certainly apply it to this year\'s Cards. If you look at where they finished there is no discussion, everything is exactly what their record shows it is, the Cards were the best team by definition. And that is a separate question-- Sekrah made the point early in this string, I made it as clear as it can be made, and you guys simply want to have a different conversation, over and over. We know what her record was, we know what she accomplished. The issue is COMPARING her to that.

The shoe stuff is downright silly. You want to make a shoe correction? How many points?

[Funny Cide]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And after that race we were able to give her a
> figure. And able to compare that figure to those
> run by someone like Havre De Grace. And neither of
> you guys is listening-- you are having a different
> conversation.
>
> This goes to the question we discussed about
> baseball teams, and you could certainly apply it
> to this year\'s Cards. If you look at where they
> finished there is no discussion, everything is
> exactly what their record shows it is, the Cards
> were the best team by definition. And that is a
> separate question-- Sekrah made the point early in
> this string, I made it as clear as it can be made,
> and you guys simply want to have a different
> conversation, over and over. We know what her
> record was, we know what she accomplished. The
> issue is COMPARING her to that.
>
> The shoe stuff is downright silly. You want to
> make a shoe correction? How many points?

Her being obviously uncomfortable in the early going is a fact, and any reasonable human factors that in when assessing her performance.  If your numbers can\'t factor in such facts, then it only illustrates one of the flaws of your numbers, and I wouldn\'t call that silly.

[P-Dub]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And after that race we were able to give her a
> figure. And able to compare that figure to those
> run by someone like Havre De Grace. And neither of
> you guys is listening-- you are having a different
> conversation.
>
> This goes to the question we discussed about
> baseball teams, and you could certainly apply it
> to this year\'s Cards. If you look at where they
> finished there is no discussion, everything is
> exactly what their record shows it is, the Cards
> were the best team by definition. And that is a
> separate question-- Sekrah made the point early in
> this string, I made it as clear as it can be made,
> and you guys simply want to have a different
> conversation, over and over. We know what her
> record was, we know what she accomplished. The
> issue is COMPARING her to that.
>
> The shoe stuff is downright silly. You want to
> make a shoe correction? How many points?

I wasn\'t asking for a shoe correction. It was part of the discussion explaining adversity and how it relates to performance and greatness.

As for Sekrah, this thread is more than a HOY discussion for him.  He hates Zenyatta, which he is certainly entitled to do. That much is pretty clear. The guy tosses around words like \"asinine\" if someone has the audacity to disagree with him.  If he wasn\'t so friggin arrogant, he might be a bit more tolerable.

I know you have better things to do than go back and forth with me, and I do get your point.  I\'ll let you get back to your business.  Looking forward to the data this Wednesday, appreciate the work you and your staff put in.

[TGJB]

Good thinking, because even if we accept your reasoning and that it had an effect, no other horse has ever had anything to deal with. Right?

[TGJB]

Pdub-- the shoe thing was for the other guy. Good enough.

[Funny Cide]

TGJB Wrote:
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> Good thinking, because even if we accept your
> reasoning and that it had an effect, no other
> horse has ever had anything to deal with. Right?

Oh, so then you only deal with the final time, not anything else like a horse\'s trip.  I see.

[Boscar Obarra]

Funny Cide Wrote:
-------------------------------------
> Numbers don\'t tell everything.  How much did you
> credit her for the queen\'s plates she was wearing
> and obvious inability to grab the track early on
> in the Classic at CD?


  As was said at the time, it was clear that something wasn\'t right in the early going at CD, and it probably cost her the race. I don\'t recall reading about the shoe issue, but that\'s as good a story as any.

 I get the distinct feeling that the trauma of seeing Z barreling down the stretch and barely missing  is still being worked out by a few here.  It must have been terrible.

[NoCarolinaTony]

I\'ve been reading this string and getting dizzy.....

Speed Figure is based on the Speed of the race + all the other factors stated on the TG How to read the figs.....

And the Shoe thing is part of Handicapping.....so what are we talking about??

Give it a rest already...