Fast pace, new top

[JimP]

Can\'t disagree with anything you said. Jockey strategy surely does influence the outcome of some races. But that doesn\'t have anything to do with the example I cited or the question I asked. No doubt the final time that a closer runs is influenced by the fractions that he runs in the early stages. The question that I was addressing is \"how is a closers final time influenced by the fractions that OTHER HORSES run in the early stages\". I posed a particular example of a race pace shape to see how classichandicapper would respond. You posed a completely different one - which I will summarize as \"when the pace is slow up front, some jockeys on closers screw up\". Can\'t argue with that. I\'m sure that some of those jockeys up front are screwing up with a really fast pace as well. Can\'t argue with that either.

[Michael D.]

thanks for the response Jim...
yes, i think we can all agree that pace does influence the final time of SOME races. if all jockeys had a clock in their head, pace would not make much difference at all. i guess the question is: to what degree do these jock decisions change the complexion of a race. on this point, i would imagine everybody has a different opinion. some of the horses in the Gr 1 turf races yesterday certainly would have run faster if the paces were faster.

[Michael D.]

thanks BB..... yes, i was wondering why i was way out there in left field... Belmont day and i could not get a better seat. poor farma way; he set the track record in the pim special three weeks earlier, then has to come back and run that kind of pace?

[Mall]

Trainer Howard wasn\'t far off the mark when he said that Ambassador Farish has put his heart & soul in this game for many yrs. It also isn\'t surprising that, to a traditionalist, a JCGP victory by a homebred might mean as much or more as a victory in the Classic. As for stud fees, Mineshaft\'s was announced prior to Sat, and winning or losing the Classic would have no impact whatsoever on the size or total amount of his fees. Where it might have an impact, however, is on Lane\'s End, perhaps the premier breeding operation in the US, & its many employees & partners. AP Indy has to be about 14 yrs old at this point, & one of the questions they are presumably dealing with is whether Mineshaft is going to be their replacement \"foundation sire.\" So to a certain extent the question involves the jobs of a great many people, & continued success at the highest level of the breeding business. Nonetheless, I continue to believe that Ambassador Farish is the kind of person who might be convinced to once again put the interests of racing ahead of his own.

[OPM]

I agree, I think he will go just for horse racing although it\'s asking alot of the horse but with contenders dropping like flies it\'s probably worth the trip.  With Azeri\'s loss today, this horse is definitely HOY.

[Mall]

My impression is that the main reason it was unlikely that Azeri would run in the Classic was to keep the win streak alive. Now that it\'s over, it might make some sense to give the Classic a try, especially if Mineshaft doesn\'t run. It was peculiar to see her running almost faster after the race was over today. BTW, after a second one in 4 days shouldn\'t you start thinking about changing your moniker to \"PK6 King\"?

[TGJB]

Okay, I\'ll bite-- what were the other times he put the interests of racing above his own?

My impression is that Farish likes to be 3/5 in stakes-- he often runs in small stakes against overmatched horses, especially with colts, presumably to build them up as sires. This year\'s Preakness is the only exception that comes to mind.

Which is his business. But, sportsman?

[Mall]

On many occasions, during the 10 yrs he was Chariman of the Board at Churchill Downs, as Steward & Vice Chairman of the Jockey Club, as Director & Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Breeders Cup, as a member of the Board of Directors at Keeneland, in the instrumental role he played in bringing racing to Texas, in helping the Horse Council fight legislation which would have been a disaster for the industry, in the time & financial contributions he has made to numerous horse-related charities, by introducing many newcomers to the game, in helping many in the game under circumstances where there was no expectation of profit, etc, etc. Racing\'s plague of short fields in major races the last few yrs is not his doing, and I would venture to say that was not the case for most of the 120 stakes winners he has campaigned over the last 35 yrs. The conventional wisdom nowadays is that without players there would not be any game, which is obviously true, but doesn\'t tell the whole story. Putting aside the St Kitts gang, players as a whole get back about 80 cents of every dollar they put in. For owners such as Ambassador Farish, it\'s about 50 cents for every dollar invested. Considering the economics & some of the other things high-end owners have to deal with, calling one who has given so generously of his time & money to the industry for so many yrs a \"sportsman\" doesn\'t seem out of line to me. If anything, it\'s an understatement.

[Frost King]

Maybe as a sportsman, he does not want to put his reputation and name on the line in situations where he does not have a reasonable expection of doing well. It is not any different than betting on some plug at 30-1 that might have the chance to pair up a number. Just like their are players that feast on short priced horses, their are some owners that like to see the flashing light on the tote board that shows that they are the odds on favourite, different strokes for different folks.

[Upper Nile]

You made some slanderous accusations regarding Frankel in your previous post-Empire Maker Toast- which I challenged and asked you for some proof to back up what you said. You never responded.  Frankel has responded by winning 2 more Grade 1 stakes on 2 coasts this past weekend.  Now\'s another opportunity for you to either publicly apoligize for your slander or present your proof of wrongdoing by Frankel.
Phil

[Frost King]

Hey I have no problem apologizing when I am wrong, so he won a couple of Grade I. I will still bet him when I think the moment is right, and bet against him when i feel he will get beat.

[alm]

I don\'t have enough insight on Farish to comment as to whether or not he is a sportsman.  But I breed, buy, and race horses and would never commit the lowliest claimer to its next race until I see how it comes forward from its last.

That can take two to three weeks, depending upon the horse.

With a horse of Mineshaft\'s ability an owner shouldn\'t even consider running it unless everything is perfect in this regard.  The stakes in terms of its physical well being and ultimate value are simply too high.

You\'re all watching Seabiscuit too much...Sam Riddle was a great horseman who the movie treated really badly.  He probably knew what he was up against in the great match race and resisted it for good reason...it wasn\'t too long afterwards that they physically caught Tom Smith squirting ephedrine up a horse\'s nose before a race.

[beyerguy]

No way Mineshaft should be HOY if Perfect Drift wins the Classic.  He beat him head to head, and would have a classic win to go with his other victories as well.

>No way Mineshaft should be HOY if Perfect Drift wins the Classic. He beat him head to head, and would have a classic win to go with his other victories as well.<

That will be an interesting vote. He will have a win over Mineshaft, Conagree (twice) and MOD. But you just know that some people are going to argue that the win over Mineshaft was aided by a break in the weights and what some thought was a premature move by Mineshaft. Then he had another break in the weights against Congaree in the other victory.

My guess is that a lot of people are going to insist that Mineshaft was the better horse. It should be an interesting discussion.

Personally, I think Mineshaft might have been slightly the better horse, but if Perfect Drift wins the Classic over MOD and Congaree etc... at level weights I don\'t see how he can be denied given that the rest of his dirt record is so good (now matter what the weights).