Rapid Redux ML 1/9

[TGJB]

Pdub-- stop calling people names. Lots of people say lots of things,the fact that you feel it necessary to comment on every single post you have an opinion on, even if you have many times before, is your own problem, and is what heats things up.

[Frank]

P Dub,
I agree with everything you say about Zenyatta, clearly without argument one of the greatest champions in the history of horseracing.
It also is very clear that a taunting flag should have been thrown against Rick B but just let it go. Let the haters keep chirping.
Frank

[jimbo66]

Frank,

You are allowed your opinion, but it would certainly not be correct to say \"clearly without argument\".  There are skeptics and not just complete outliers who doubt/hate everything.  

She retired, we move on.

[Rick B.]

Frank Wrote:
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> It also is very clear that a taunting flag should
> have been thrown against Rick B but just let it go.

That\'s crap.
 
The question of \"Yeah...but who did she beat?\" is a permanent part of Zenyatta\'s lore, whether anyone likes it or not. I didn\'t invent it...and it is certainly not an insignificant nor \"hater\" type of question.

That Z\'s supporters always bristle at the mention of it speaks volumes.

[P-Dub]

Frank Wrote:
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> P Dub,
> I agree with everything you say about Zenyatta,
> clearly without argument one of the greatest
> champions in the history of horseracing.
> It also is very clear that a taunting flag should
> have been thrown against Rick B but just let it
> go. Let the haters keep chirping.
> Frank

Thanks Frank, I\'m done with it. It obviously still pains the guy, 12 months later.  Maybe those posts from him help with the rehab.

[plasticman]

Only people who don\'t really follow the sport will ask \'who she beat\'. If you follow the sport, you\'ll know she won the worlds premier horserace for older horses (apologizes to dubai) and almost won it again the following year while probably being unlucky to lose. If you want to make the argument that she only ran in \'two tough races\' that is an argument that can be entertained. If you want to say that its not her fault that \'nobody\' showed up to race her in the many grade 1 races she won, you can entertain that thought also.

I think that it probably comes down to this. The \'who she beat\' argument would have held much more water had she been \'exposed\' in the Classic. Many \'sharp\' bettors who threw her out on all their exotic tickets (because, she beat nothing) got schooled and sent out behind the woodshed. Those same bettors then got angry that she beat  them and still werent able to admit they were wrong about her.

Its time to move on like one poster said in one of the above responses in this thread.

Zenyatta is an all time great and there\'s really nothing you can do about it. Its time to let it go.

[jma11473]

Let\'s bring the two threads together---the real question is, could Zenyatta have beaten Rapid Redux? Two horse-of-the-year candidates with very similar campaigns where they rarely face anyone...that\'d be a battle.

Sorry, guess I\'m a \"hater\"...I love that expression, like I\'m hanging at the hip-hop message board except with a bunch of 50-year-old white guys saying it. It\'s real \"gangsta\".

[TGJB]

Right, the thing to do is just agree with you and move on.

[Lost Cause]

plasticman Wrote:
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> Only people who don\'t really follow the sport will
> ask \'who she beat\'.

So Everyone on this board who is not on the Z bandwagon does not follow this sport, including the guy who made the figs we\'re following and hosts the board you\'re writing?? Are u nuts?


>
> \"Zenyatta is an all time great and there\'s really
> nothing you can do about it. Its time to let it
> go.\"

I think it\'s mandatory for a horse termed \"all time great\" to at least beat one \"great\" horse.
 
Take a look at Personal Ensign running down a loose on the lead kentucky derby winner on a sloppy track and see if Z would have done that.  That was an all time great...

I think Z was good but you guys can\'t make her more than she was at least not to me and the rest of us guys \"who don\'t really follow the sport\"

[jimbo66]

Plastic

The polarity on views of Zenyatta is not any \"lack of knowledge\" or \"not knowing the sport\".  There are plenty of folks who know the sport well that think she was well managed and extremely consistent at a high level.  (not \"all time great\".)

The polarity exists because the connections chose to take a path that allowed there to be doubt. Those that loved (and still love) her will always say she was great and one of the all time best.  Those that don\'t believe that can point to the fact that she almost never left California and raced in the same races again and again.  

Tough to \"prove\" it either way.  Her figures weren\'t \"great\", which is how some measure it.  

I am pretty sure that most of us have finalized our views on this and we aren\'t going to convince anybody in either camp to change camps.  For me, as time passes, I respect Zenyatta more, but hate Shirreffs/Moss twice as much.

[Footlick]

It is also a part of Ruffian\'s lore.  That is the sad thing.  That talent is questioned by \"who did so and so beat\".  IMO, Zarkava had more talent in her tail than any 3 yr old filly I have seen, Rachel and Ruffian included.  And Zarkava proved it against stronger opposition, imo.  But, that is just my opinion, not empirical fact.  She was a turf filly in Europe.  Ruffian and Rachel were dirt fillies.  Apples and oranges. Actually, I would put Dark Mirage and Genuine Risk ahead of Ruffian who I would put ahead of Rachel, but that is just my opinion also.  You certainly cannot fault Zarkava\'s opposition in regards to either Ruffian\'s, Rachel\'s or Zenyatta\'s.  I am a huge Zenyatta fan, but I am very tired of all the back and forth.  I would have loved to see a more ambitious campaign.  It didn\'t happen.  She finished first in two BC races and second in a third.  If that does not validate her talent to some, then it doesn\'t.  She is retired.  If some want to compare her to Rapid Redux or Pepper\'s Pride and intimate she is no better then they will (not saying anyone has done that here so please, no backlash).  Moving on is good only because , as another said, all opinions of her have been formed and nothing will change anyone\'s opinions.  But, Zarkava was amazing!!!!  All hail Zarkava!!!

[TGJB]

Foot-- without commenting on where Ruffian stands historically, it\'s worth noting that she wasn\'t winning photos.

[Rich Curtis]

If their victory margins are worth comparing, are their Ragozin figures worth comparing too?

The above should produce a good one-liner from you, but Ruffian was a lot slower on Ragozin than most people would guess.

[TGJB]

I was there.

My point (this one) is that all wins are not equal, figures and competition aside.

[Rich Curtis]

Fair enough.

 I guess my points are that Zenyatta accomplished more than Ruffian, travelled more than Ruffian, faced better competition than Ruffian, and was 12 lengths faster than Ruffian on the Ragozin Sheets.