Frankel

[HP]

Good thing the Zenyatta talk was stopped so we could have a conclusive evaluation of Dr. Fager/Secretariat vs. the horses of today.  No offense but it\'s like listening to old folks talk about the weather.  Also a little like \"Groundhog Day.\"  

But how about that Frankel!  LMAO.  

HP

[miff]

\"Good thing the Zenyatta talk was stopped so we could have a conclusive evaluation of Dr. Fager/Secretariat vs. the horses of today\"

HP,

Was going to co-mingle the string by pointing out that Zenyatta was 2 seconds faster than Secretariat and Dr.Fager but would have been too confusing.


Mike

[HP]

I have to defer to JB on anything figure related.  If he says horses are getting faster I believe it.  I\'m not qualified to argue this.  

Reminds me of baseball.  They have these debates in every sport.  Old timers vs. newbies.  Best example I can think of is pitching.  Tom Seaver threw more complete games in a year than today\'s pitchers will throw in a career.  Pick the best pitcher in baseball today and tell me I can pick that pitcher vs. Tom Seaver in his prime.  I\'m picking Seaver.  And all of this about today\'s players being bigger, stronger and faster...today\'s game is like watching paint dry.  Six pitching changes to get through an inning.  Most of the guys that CAN pitch nine innings, even at the beginning of their careers, need new arms and elbows after a few years.  For my money it\'s ironic that these improvements in fitness, training, etc. do absolutely nothing to improve the game.  I feel lucky to have seen the real thing.  Another generation of iPhone toting fans and baseball will be finished.  

For me the same applies to horse racing.  Put Secretariat or Spectacular Bid (ran lights out THIRTY times) on the track with any of today\'s fastest horses.  Whatever \"science\" is going to be applied I will take the old guys vs. your Ghostzappers or whoever eight days a week.  Just looking at it as a sports fan and not a scientist or figure maker.  I still enjoy the game but is it BETTER?  Nah.  

HP

[miff]

HP,

Pitchers throw much harder today.Don\'t recall just how hard Seaver threw but some guys get up to 100+ mph today(dont know if radar guns are true/accurate) Players today bigger,stronger,faster from Tom Terrific days.Baseball is jacked today to enhance Home Runs for fans, shorter fences too.

No idea how Tom Terrific would do vs modern players.


Mike

[HP]

I saw Gibson pitch against Seaver at Shea.  Not buying that they are much faster today.  Both of those guys threw in the 90s.  Saw Ryan and he threw 100 mph FOREVER and pitched nine every time out.  They were big and strong enough to score plenty of runs back then too.  I guess the AVERAGE player is bigger and stronger but I don\'t see anyone that would make me think Willie McCovey was weak.  I have not seen any team win the World Series over the past ten years that I would take over The Big Red Machine.  

It\'s a pointless argument really, in baseball or horse racing.  I\'m taking nostalgia.  I enjoy it more than science.  

HP

[magicnight]

Even nostalgia ain\'t what it used to be, HP.

Miff, today\'s pitchers may throw harder, but I don\'t think they throw it any faster.

My favorite Nolan Ryan story is when he struck out the leadoff hitter (can\'t recall who this was) and, as the leadoff guy was walking back to the dugout, he advised the second guy in the lineup \"don\'t go up there!\".

[TGJB]

A generation in humans is considered 25 years, in horses maybe 7-10. Seaver, Ryan, Gibson etc. were a generation or two ago. Dr. Fager and Secretariat were 5 generations ago, playing a game that relies on selctive breeding. Think the ballplayers from 100 years ago would do well against the ones today?

[HP]

Depends on the player Jerry.  I think Ty Cobb would do alright.  Cy Young was six two and 210 lbs.  I have a feeling he threw pretty hard.  On average, maybe the players from 100 years ago might not do so well.  But the BEST players?  Your Dr. Fager/Secretariat types?  Not so sure they\'d get blown away.

Here\'s a quote about Walter Johnson.  \"Obviously there were not radar guns in Johnson\'s day, but two experiments clocked Johnson\'s fastball at 134 feet per second and 91.7 MPH.\"  Another experiment had him in the mid 90s.  Smokey Joe Wood reportedly threw harder.  

I\'ll let you know when my Time Machine is done.  

HP

[Boscar Obarra]

How would horseplayers of 75 years ago do today?

[magicnight]

\"How would horseplayers of 75 years ago do today?\"

The sheet guys from back then would probably do fine.

[miff]

\"The sheet guys from back then would probably do fine\"

Magic,

Probably no sheets back then, but if you added the DRF speed rating plus variant,plus weight carried and bet the highest number,you beat the game!!

Steve Crist wanted to drop those from DRF but met opposition from the damn old people, pains in the neck!


Mike

[magicnight]

Mike;

Perhaps not the sheets that we know of today, but the book TGJB cites in \"History Lesson\" that contained many if not all of the tenets of sheet methodology was published (2nd edition) in 1936 ... 76 years ago.

That is pretty funny about the DRF and their old speed ratings, but - hey - somebody must have been winning with them.

[sekrah]

Wow, this one thread has gone down like 20 different roads.

I\'m in the camp of, if you took a time machine and brough the best players from the 1910-1950s to present day, they would be starters, but nowhere near the stars they were in their day.

The depth was not great then and they feasted on alot of lousy pitching.   The stud pitchers could throw 90s, but there were plenty of major league pitchers who threw low 80s, who wouldn\'t get past single A minor leagues today.  Alot of the star hitter feasted on these guys.  

Pitch repertoire has changed so much since then too.  Walter Johnson could throw low-mid 90s, but that\'s all he threw.  He developed a curveball that he\'d mix in occaisionally, but I\'ve read he threw fastballs 80%+ of the time.  He did it because he threw harder than everybody else and nobody could catch up to it.   He would get torched trying that in today\'s game.   A plus-fastball, and okay breaking ball.  He could probably carve out a niche as a reliever today.

Pitches like split-finger fastball (Sutter) and cutters (Gossage, Rivera) were non existant back then.  Even a pitch that you would think would be simple, a Changeup, has also evolved alot since that era as well.

[P-Dub]

sekrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow, this one thread has gone down like 20
> different roads.
>
> I\'m in the camp of, if you took a time machine and
> brough the best players from the 1910-1950s to
> present day, they would be starters, but nowhere
> near the stars they were in their day.
>
> The depth was not great then and they feasted on
> alot of lousy pitching.   The stud pitchers could
> throw 90s, but there were plenty of major league
> pitchers who threw low 80s, who wouldn\'t get past
> single A minor leagues today.  Alot of the star
> hitter feasted on these guys.  
>
> Pitch repertoire has changed so much since then
> too.  Walter Johnson could throw low-mid 90s, but
> that\'s all he threw.  He developed a curveball
> that he\'d mix in occaisionally, but I\'ve read he
> threw fastballs 80%+ of the time.  He did it
> because he threw harder than everybody else and
> nobody could catch up to it.   He would get
> torched trying that in today\'s game.   A
> plus-fastball, and okay breaking ball.  He could
> probably carve out a niche as a reliever today.
>
> Pitches like split-finger fastball (Sutter) and
> cutters (Gossage, Rivera) were non existant back
> then.  Even a pitch that you would think would be
> simple, a Changeup, has also evolved alot since
> that era as well.

I\'m not sure you are giving those guys enough respect.

If Walter Johnson were playing in today\'s era, he would have the opportunity to develop other pitches. He would have the proper coaching to learn a changeup, refine his curveball, read scouting reports, view video files, etc... He would receive the proper nutrition, be provided with an exercise regimen, A professional training and medical staff, etc... Baseball has evolved over time, pitching as much as anything. This could be said for any pitcher from a different era. Bob Feller threw pretty damn hard. If he had that talent today, he would receive the proper coaching to develop a changeup, curveball, or any number of other pitches.

Same with the hitters. Sure, they hit some pretty mediocre pitching. There are plenty of relievers and starters that are less than good in today\'s game. Remember, these hitters will receive the same training, coaching, nutrition, etc...as today\'s players. They would have seen changeups, curveballs, sliders, etc.. and adapted to them, just as today\'s players have had to do.

You\'re saying they feasted on low 80\'s cheese, and couldn\'t hit better pitching?? As they say on SNL...Really??  Sek, you\'re selling these guys way to short.

There are more good players today, largely due to the obvious population growth. Players from another era would be successful.  Perhaps they wouldn\'t put up some of the monster numbers some have, but they would be amongst the top players in the game. Who knows, maybe they would post huge numbers..

[miff]

\"I\'m in the camp of, if you took a time machine and brough the best players from the 1910-1950s to present day, they would be starters, but nowhere near the stars they were in their day\"

Sek,

Interesting take. I\'m in the camp that great baseball players from 1910-1950 eras would not be physically talented enough to be ballboys today, given how much bigger/stronger/faster the humans of today are vs those of 60 to 100 years ago.Would think there may have been some great pitchers from thoses eras who may be able to pitch today.Baseball pitchers could be the exception.

Football, basketball, tennis, track and field and the rest have come way to far physically for any of those from 50-100 years ago to be able to be competitive in competing with modern athletes,imo.


Mike