Posted sans comment.

[SoCalMan2]

I once had blod clot.  The treatment I was prescribed was coumadin (also known as warfarin).  It is, in fact, rat poison, and it is a anti-coagulant.  Commonly, it is referred to as a blood thinner.  The idea is that if rats OD on the stuff, they die from internal bleeding because the thinned blood just oozes out.  In humans, they have to be very careful about dose....but assuming they are....it has therapeutic benefits.  I am not sure what its impact would have been on my athletic performance.

[sighthound]

The impact would have been poor on your athletic performance.  And what happens to rats - and cats, dogs, children, cows, etc. that get a lethal dose - is well known, be it a vitamin K antagonist or not.

[TGJB]

Sight-- with all due respect you are missing the point. As I mentioned a few days ago, Allday admitted that when he developed EPO use on horses some died-- it thickens blood, and he started using aspirin to thin it.

To be clear, I have absolutely no idea if that\'s what\'s going on here. Just interesting.

[sighthound]

Yes, I am aware of that - and any veterinarian would be - or should be - aware that rat poison\'s effects are not those of aspirin as far as the coagulation cascade goes.

[docicu3]

1) There are three arms to the coagulation cascade
  a) The liver dependent factors of which Warfarin or Coumadin are part of.
  b) The blood vessel or endothelial factors of which Warfarin or Coumidin are not involved with for the most part.
  c) The platelets which are involved in clot formation (Aspirin alters platelets so they will never work for the life of the platelet)

The best use of this drug being discussed is to avoid making clot in the horses lungs at all cost, not limiting bleeding, but to thin the horses blood in the lungs to a point where the air spaces or alveoli and small blood vessels and red cells in the lungs can pass the most oxygen to be delivered to the horses body.

Red Blood Cell clots formed block the number of potential air spaces in the lungs or limit the amount of oxygen a horse can potentially transport throughout the body and use to run.  It\'s all about avoiding shunt or A-V mismatch....

[kekomi]

this is exactly right--EPO thickens blood for any species who takes it, and overdoses cause heart failure due to sludge-like blood.

back when EPO was first hitting pro-cycling, around 1990, about 19 young belgian cyclists ( all around20 years of age) all dropped dead due to heart failure. when their autopsies where done, their blood was described by the coroners as thick sludge.

in the mid-1990s, due to continued heart failures and a lack of a way to test for EPO (not like they would have really tested for it anyway, unless the rider or team failed to pay their kick-backs to verbruggan), the UCI instituted a 50% rule--anyone with more a hematocrit higher than 50% was not allowed to race for health reasons--above 50% the risk of heart failure was too great and they didn\'t want another tommy simpson ( a rider who dropped dead in the tour while climbing mt. ventoux of an amphetamine induced-heart attack)--looks bad on tv.

EPO use is basically the poor mans doping these days because of the test and the danger of heart failure, blood packing is just as successful and almost undetectable without an expensive reticule test (test to see how many old vs new red blood cells are present in the blood).

back in the day, cyclists used to to try to sleep standing up to keep their hearts pumping--the risk of heart failure was greatest while sleeping lying down.

whenever a living being is commoditized--all concern for the individual is subsumed--if this happens to college basketball players and pro-cyclists (tommy simpson had alreayd fallen several times before he died and they just kept picking him up and pushing him off again), nobody should be at all shocked about what someones would do to an animal...

when you see patterns--horses trained by same trainer, owned by same owner, stabled at same barn, attributing it to coincidence or accident is patently nieve.

i have a question for sighthound, why does a person purporting to be vet, always go too such great lengths to discount doping and abuse? you must know it is happening and have sufficient understanding of physiology to be one of the most likely to be concerned. the only doctors i knew in cycling who did the same, were apologist actively involved in doping.

[sighthound]

First - please read up about horses and splenic contraction. Horses are not people.

Secondly - Rest assured I am a licensed, practicing veterinarian.

Third - You apparently do not read my posts very frequently. I do not \"always go to great lengths\" to discount doping in the least.  Nor have I here during this discussion.  I try to keep reality and medical fact impinging on the crazy, uneducated flights of fancy often generated by the general public.

Fourth - your sly assertion that I must be involved with doping shows your profound ignorance on the subject.

Fifth - I see your ability to use google places you as an expert on blood doping and doping horses in your own mind.  See #3.

And I have to edit and add a Sixth -  You mentioned \"an expensive retic count\".  Reticulocytes are immature red blood cells with limited oxygen-carrying capacity, and are easily measured by putting a drop of blood on a slide, staining it with common, inexpensive stains, and counting under a microscope.  It is done easily and inexpensively every day. It is not the way use of EPO is detected nowadays See #3.

[sighthound]

Considering that nearly all horses have exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage, and the two primary mechanisms of same, histopathology examination has shown that clotting in the lungs during exercise isn\'t a problem in exercising horses. This is not why anybody would use an anticoagulant in horses.

Recall that horses self-increase their own red blood cell volume (blood dope themselves) markedly during exercise. As much as 50% of their circulating RBC volume is normally stored in the spleen. This is what makes doping by using a long-term method to increase the number of RBC\'s in the normal circulating blood volume using EPO so dangerous in the equine.

[sighthound]

The trouble with much of the perception around American horse racing is that first, American gamblers generally don\'t know much about horses, and tend to view them as some sort of racing machine; and secondly, trainers are not required to be open and upfront with the public regarding their husbandry methods and what work has been done on the horse, as such a great portion of American racing is claiming races.

I am NOT saying cheating does not occur. It does. I am against cheating. I do not cheat. I have never cheated. I have never helped a trainer cheat, and never would.  But all that is called cheating by gamblers is not.  I wish gamblers would start to realize that.

Don\'t miss the real cheaters by shooting at the entire industry with a large-pattern shotgun.

1.  Horse is claimed at Keeneland for $15,000, next time out 7 weeks later runs 6 lengths better and wins.  

Gambler on internet:  trainer is a cheat
Reality:  Horse had stomach ulcers, was medicated; had a painful tooth digging into it\'s gums, was floated; was dewormed; gained 50 pounds as result of all that, became a happier, more capable horse able to work and win.  As it\'s a claiming horse, of course none of this info was available outside the barn.

2.  Horse of big-name trainer fails to run
Gambler on internet:  trainer is a cheat, didn\'t give it the juice today
Reality: Horse sprung a shoe during race, twisted ankle. Press told it lost the shoe, but not about the new chip in the front ankle that can\'t be operated on because there\'s another big race in 5 weeks, and a sale is pending.

3.  Horse comes into new barn, 7 weeks later runs 20 Beyer points better and wins.
Gambler: trainer is a cheat, gave it the juice today
Reality:  Horse had both sore hocks injected, so can run to it\'s potential.

Just saying - we need more transparency on horse husbandry practices, but with American claiming game, doubt it can occur.

[TGJB]

Sight-- your analysis of why gamblers think there is cheating going on is way off. One move-up doesn\'t mean a thing, but when the same trainers get the same move-up a lot of times it ain\'t all ulcers, and you can see it on accurate data. This is something some VETS don\'t get-- Rick Arthur did not when I first talked to him, now he asks me to run data on certain trainers.

Another reason is factual knowledge, like Allday admitting what he did for all those top trainers, and all those GI horses. And like the recent finding of a syringe with EPO in the barn area at a NYRA track.

[sighthound]

TGJB, that is why \"you\" think there is cheating going on. You\'re used to analyzing data and identifying inconsistencies.

The average gambler doesn\'t think like that, and fails to have any response to a horse performing better than others - or trainers performing better than others - than a cynical eye towards cheating. You know that\'s true.  I know that\'s true.  I read it every single day, and so do you.

It\'s absurd the accusations I see thrown at trainers who are honest, and do better than their peers.

Yeah, folks - some trainers do indeed take better care of their horses, spend more money on their care, feed, supplements, train better, and most importantly, can read a condition book and get their horses in races they can win.  Oh, and then they get the better stock.

Calling every accomplished trainer a cheater is bullshiat.  Finding one EPO syringe doesn\'t mean every top trainer is dirty.  

Yes, there are cheating trainers. I\'ve always said they are slime. Seriously, what percentage of trainers do you think that is?  Nationally, at California, NY and KY I\'d say that was 10% tops.  What do you say?  Put an estimate on it.

Yes, Allday admitted what everybody already knew everyone was doing back before it was banned.  Heroin and cocaine used to not be banned, too, and everyone used that.  Then that was banned and they used caffeine, speed, meth.  Then lasix and bute and aspirin and every legal drug that was developed, then the illegal ones, until racing determined a drug was performance enhancing and banned it. That was no surprise.  

Cheaters aren\'t superchemists, or supersmart.  They tend to be stupid.  They inject a horse with EPO then are shocked when the PCV goes to 75% and the horse dies.  Duh.   I\'ve had trainers swear to me that the magic herbs they got off the internet from some foreign country does this, or does that.  Superstition is rampant on the backstretch.  Sometimes those herbs test positive for performance-enhancing properties, most often they\'ve just lost their money.

When Allday - and every other vet did it - it wasn\'t \"cheating\", as it wasn\'t forbidden or banned - and when a practice finally was (milkshaking, for example), there was no dependable way to find it for most stuff.

Remember the outrage at Dancer\'s Image?  LOL at what we probably missed during that time, unable to find it.

I know you run data for Arthur, and I know that he\'s not found stuff on some of those trainers, either.

So the answer to that \"not finding any forbidden substances\" is either those trainers are NOT cheating, or they are using some magical, secret formula completely undetectable by mass spectrophotometry (rare) or any other chemical analysis method we currently have (rare)

Most gamblers always assume the latter.  I\'m tired of good trainers being thrown under the bus of slander and unsubstantiated rumor because they are successful and a gambler didn\'t see it coming.

[sighthound]

CHRB disputes Bloodhorse interpretation/story on horse sudden deaths, more info provided.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/77495/chrb-no-spike-in-sudden-deaths

[Bet Twice]

Sight - I love your perspective and couldn\'t agree more.  I am a casual fan and by no means and expert, but the gambling public (and some people on this board in particular) seem to always jump to \"they must be cheating\" whenever a horse performs better (or worse) than what they predict based upon the sheets, with absolutely no proof or logical argument that is the case.

[moosepalm]

I don\'t think there\'s much upside in trying to clarify to the \"average\" gambler the realities of the cheating, or lack thereof, in the game.  They\'ll blame jockeys, stewards, and the guy who sold them a tip sheet as all part of a grand conspiracy to separate them from their two dollar win ticket.  But, even for the more informed participant who understands it\'s only a few, the reality remains the same -- it might as well be most or all, because, outside of a few of the usual suspects, you don\'t know who is doing what in which race.  So, by all means, protect the reputation of the majority in the profession, but don\'t think that it has any bearing on the perception or reality of the sport.  We will factor it in as a cost of doing business, and some may even be able to \"game it\" to their advantage through statistical analysis, but the specter of illegality is the elephant in the room in every race.

[Fairmount1]

Sighthound wrote:  \"Yeah, folks - some trainers do indeed take better care of their horses, spend more money on their care, feed, supplements, train better, and most importantly, can read a condition book and get their horses in races they can win. Oh, and then they get the better stock.\"

__________________

Sight, I\'m going to take a different stance that has been persuasive with many people the last 6-8 years that take the time to digest this example.  I\'m not sure why I take this attempt as I don\'t believe it will persuade you.  But maybe others will think more critically about these issues for themselves.  I\'m going to talk about someone that is controversial and has quite a lot of haters.  And he is my example of why I truly started to believe \"cheating\" was more rampant than ever even though I did NOT suspect of him cheating during the time frame I\'m describing (post 2004).  

DWL during the 2000\'s, after his Proud Citizen TC races, basically disappeared from the top trainer standings anywhere, his percentages were WAY down, he could not get a competitive horse in the TC, and his horses rarely showed huge \"jump\" ups in numbers.  He couldn\'t win on grass, couldn\'t win with 2yos, not with anything other than claiming races occasionally it seemed.  He couldn\'t win first out, etc etc.  He just couldn\'t win.  Obviously, I did not suspect him during those several years of cheating whatsoever.  People criticized him for all kinds of things, but the numbers reflected a trainer that had horses that didn\'t run fast and didn\'t win often.    

Now people tried to tell me he \"didn\'t get the stock others got.\"  That was a garbage argument.  Every year, he had horses that cost $500k or $750k or numerous over $75k horses.  Under your argument, am I to believe that DWL forgot how to train or that suddenly he didn\'t know how to take care of his horses during that stretch or that he suddenly wasn\'t willing to spend money for these high roller owners on supplement or feed, or did he forget how to read a condition book?  That\'s all nonsense.  We all have stretches where we are down...but this was an EXTENDED stretch.  I guarantee he has forgot more about horses than some of these new supertrainers ever even knew about a horse.  My argument was always that at that point in his career, the man was unwilling to \"push the envelope.\"  I\'m not defending or supporting him as a trainer other than to say during the 90\'s he was as successful as anyone.  And don\'t tell me that he was only successful b/c of his assistants that did all the work....again, nonsense as his successes started in the early to mid 80\'s before those assistant.  The fact is if you look at all of his horses during a several year period in the 2000\'s he just didn\'t do \"something\" that many, many others were doing whether it be legal or not.....but I highly doubt there is some legal method he wouldn\'t have taken to be successful for his owners based on his past successes.  That \"something\" isn\'t just one thing likely; that \"something\" isn\'t just \"doping\" or \"milkshaking\"; it\'s likely all sorts of manuveuers he wasn\'t willing to take at that point in his career.  

In recent years and in recent months more than ever, he has regained the momentum.  Did he just now regain the ability to train or just learn about good supplements or good feed again?  Or did he just learn to read a condition book again and that\'s why he has first timers winning sometimes or horses running fast?  

Absolutely I agree there are good horsemen that care for their horses and can improve their stock through legal means.  But I also don\'t think the trainer I described suddenly \"forgot\" how to train for a long period of time; I think his inability to win at high percentages reflects something else going on with other trainers during that time who had numerous move-ups, ridiculous win percentages, etc..

As for the California attempt to minimize the damage from a deeply, deeply concerning issue---should we expect anything else?  They don\'t cite any new information that makes me feel any differently than I did yesterday.

Finally, to be clear, in no way am I claiming whatsoever that DWL has ever \"cheated.\"  Rather, I am claiming that because I did not suspect him at all of cheating during a time period I followed racing very closely, it made me even more suspicious of other trainers.