We have been warned

[TGJB]

You said it was a conspiracy theory.

[sighthound]

Sorry, I was not clear and thus you\'ve misunderstood.

I intended to say that you have many conspiracy theories about drug use in race horses, attributable to certain trainers, that are unsupported by objective fact.

Not that KY changed labs because they blind tested and the lab wasn\'t consistently catching stuff - that is true.

But that lab didn\'t miss everything.

[TGJB]

Just so we\'re all clear:

1-- The way I know Pennsylvania wasn\'t TCO2 testing before 2010 is that they ANNOUNCED in 2010 they were going to start.

2-- The way I know Allday was using EPO was he admitted it to a roomful of people.

3-- The way I know about the KY labs is I was told it by the guy who made the decision.

4-- The way I know about the NY syringe with EPO is I was told it by someone present.

None of these are theories or conclusions. I have plenty of those based on looking at data, and the Jockey Club, Rick Arthur, Senator Udall\'s office and the Ky testing people want to know about them. But they are not FACTS-- the above are.

[miff]

JB,
Re the Syringe:

1.No horse in NY tested positive for EPO in the timeframe you told me about(recently)

2.No impending investigation of any possible violation is open for discussion.

All I could get but I assure you if any dots are connected on this, a major PR statement will come out of Albany.

If you want to see someone who doesn\'t have a f-king clue about reality vs bullshit racetrack innuendo re illegal PED\'s, look in the mirror.

[TGJB]

That was cute. Disengenuous, but cute.

CORRECT--no HORSE tested positive for EPO. For reasons I have made clear.

CORRECT-- no violation, unless they plan to charge a syringe with something.

CORRECT-- there are no dots to connect, all they have is the syringe. With EPO.

CORRECT-- it was all you could get.

[miff]

Smart ass, would you like DR.Malins number to call him yourself.What do you mean disingenuous?

[TGJB]

Call him myself and find out WHAT? He\'ll tell me what he told you-- nothing.

[sighthound]

Jerry - nobody is disputing any of the above.  

It\'s extraneous leaps to conclusions, and characterizations about particular trainers, by ANYONE (not talking about you in particular here), with zero proof, that I find offensive and harmful to the sport.

PETA crap about beating race horses to make them run, assumptive crap about particular trainers in the face of zero objective evidence - it\'s one and the same to me.

Do we need clean racing?  Of course.  Can we always do better?  Of course.  Have I seen honest trainers unfairly characterized as cheaters at various times?  So many times it disgusts me, and I\'m sick of it.

[PonyBologna]

Don\'t know if this is a private party but I\'ll throw in an opinion from a fan who is completely uneducated as to the doping aspect of horse racing.

I watch every sport there is. In every one of them there are participants who are willing to bend (and break) the rules to gain an advantage. MLB, NFL, even NASCAR...all have humans whom make the decision to put their own health at risk by ingesting chemicals which will help them perform. I\'m supposed to believe that there aren\'t prominent horse trainers who are willing to risk an animal\'s (not their own) life to bring about their own success?? Especially when they know the testing procedures are lax & even if caught they penalties are soft? Right.

I read some on here defending horse trainers like they are somehow above living in (and beyond) the grey area of the rule book to win races. Like those who cast a suspect eye to trainers whose horses seem to defy conventional thinking & patterns have some nerve to even think such shady things could take place in the barns. I have no personal knowledge of anything, I\'m so far out of any loops I can\'t even see the barns; but if you want me to believe that the top trainers in this game are all squeaky clean, I am not that naive. I haven\'t been that naive since Sosa & McGwire pulled the wool over my eyes in 1998.

When I see Aaron Boone or Brady Anderson suddenly jump up & smack 40-50 HRs in a season, I get suspicious. I don\'t think \"they must really be hitting the gym\". When I see a trainer\'s horse run a figure well outside the scope of what I consider normal I get suspicious. Not doing so is foolish & only helps to embolden those who are cheating.

[kekomi]

fwiw, the newest drug in cycling is gw501516--the tests on its efficacy as a performance enhancer are inclusive (and were conducted on rats), but since it works by shifting the body from running on glycogen to lipids, it should produce three performance enhancing \"side effects:\" allow the user to get his body weight very low without sacrificing power (the weight to power ratio is critical to overall performance); prolonging when muscle fatigue sets in by sparing glycogen uptake; and increasing the body\'s recovery rate by making glycogen more available to the muscles post exertion.  

it was created as an anti-obesity drug but never made it past the trials--yet there\'s plenty available on the performance enhancing market, curiously. it is carcinogenic and causes liver fibrosis, a key factor in live disease

there is a test but the detection window is less then a week after administration.

its efficacy is increased in combination with AICAR, which is similar and was also created as an anti-obesity drug. both also dilate blood vessels...

actually AICAR has been used for a while in cycling so i guess i shouldn\'t call it new...

make of it what you will...

ps: there a many undetectable EPO variants--they work like EPO but are structurally different and can\'t be detected by EPO tests

pps: the performance enhancement from EPO and bloodpacking last much longer than most people think--i forget the half-life, but performance enhancement declines over time, not immediately--and small increases, less than 5% in over performance enhancement, translate into huge gains (one reason EPO was so detrimental, was that its greatest benefits are attained by the worst athletes--it raises them up to the elite level, but athletes at the elite level have very little room for improvement; there is a performance enhancement ceiling--so basically it took away their natural advantage).

[Tom Sawyer]

The very idea that you \"know\" who is honest is a preposterous notion.

[miff]

\"The vast majority of trainers and veterinarians do not cheat\"

Tom,

To the extent that the attending vet could \"know\" is what was meant.Someone could always be a thief without people knowing.

To the poster who wrote of lax testing,at present,at the main venues,have another Kool Aid. Penalties are relatively light for class 3,4,5 type overage violations because they are largely bullshit and are under review to no longer be considered \"violations\"


Mike

[moosepalm]

PonyBologna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don\'t know if this is a private party but I\'ll
> throw in an opinion from a fan who is completely
> uneducated as to the doping aspect of horse
> racing.
>
> I watch every sport there is. In every one of them
> there are participants who are willing to bend
> (and break) the rules to gain an advantage. MLB,
> NFL, even NASCAR...all have humans whom make the
> decision to put their own health at risk by
> ingesting chemicals which will help them perform.
> I\'m supposed to believe that there aren\'t
> prominent horse trainers who are willing to risk
> an animal\'s (not their own) life to bring about
> their own success?? Especially when they know the
> testing procedures are lax & even if caught they
> penalties are soft? Right.
>
> I read some on here defending horse trainers like
> they are somehow above living in (and beyond) the
> grey area of the rule book to win races. Like
> those who cast a suspect eye to trainers whose
> horses seem to defy conventional thinking &
> patterns have some nerve to even think such shady
> things could take place in the barns. I have no
> personal knowledge of anything, I\'m so far out of
> any loops I can\'t even see the barns; but if you
> want me to believe that the top trainers in this
> game are all squeaky clean, I am not that naive. I
> haven\'t been that naive since Sosa & McGwire
> pulled the wool over my eyes in 1998.
>
> When I see Aaron Boone or Brady Anderson suddenly
> jump up & smack 40-50 HRs in a season, I get
> suspicious. I don\'t think \"they must really be
> hitting the gym\". When I see a trainer\'s horse run
> a figure well outside the scope of what I consider
> normal I get suspicious. Not doing so is foolish &
> only helps to embolden those who are cheating.

^^^This.

You can put all the facts I know on the topic in a thimble and have room for popcorn.  Human nature, however, might lend credence to certain opinions.  I have yet to see a sport of national significance with strong monetary underpinnings in which the envelop of performance is not pushed by some form of chemical enhancement.  That\'s an easy given, but the tougher part is to accept that it\'s more widespread than any form of current testing or enforcement can address.  The benefit of the doubt will be extended beyond reason in the face of incredible, and barely explicable, performance and/or physical magnifications.  We see that in all major professional sports, cycling, track, even among those once put on pedestals, yet our suspicions of dubious accomplishments in a sport where money changes hands every day, let alone the millions that ride on perceptions of breeding potential, are questioned because of lack of proof.  This is not a level playing field.  In any of these endeavors, the efforts expended to gain an edge will always outstrip the enforcement, whether it\'s new and currently undetectable substances, or ways to prevent detection of existing ones.  It\'s a game of odds, and if my suspicions exceed what\'s currently known or provable, human nature suggests the odds are in my favor.

[RICH]

CHRB banned EPO Aug 21, 2002

[Eight Belles]

sighthound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry - Steve Allday has said on the radio, to the
> general public, that he used to use EPO before it
> was banned, and he wasn\'t the only one.  Said it a
> few years back.  
>
> He didn\'t say it only to the Jockey Club.
>
> Race track vets used to milkshake, too, before
> that was banned, as a common practice.
>
> If it wasn\'t illegal, it was done.


Wait a second here.  This isn\'t steroids we\'re talking about, where there was tacit approval of the drug prior to it being banned.  Just because a drug isn\'t banned yet doesn\'t make it either right or legal.  When drugs are given in secret, that\'s all you have to know about it and its legality.