Pletcher....keeneland

[miff]

\"I will bet anything that if the opportunity comes to do OOC testing Maylin jumps at it\"

Positively correct JB,recommended and declined, money money money!He admitted OOC will be very expensive,logistically tough.Advanced a suggestion that they stop throwing money down a dark hole with inflated winter purses, esp for NY Bred maiden claiming slow rats,redirect that money for OOC testing.Trainers/owners scream, dont want to take a purse haircut,upstate backyard breeders run to their State Senators....nothing happens.

Shameful, reportedly a $1.5 million dollar expense for jockey welfare/safety fund from slot money was squashed by horsemen because not in the original agreement.

[TGJB]

Yeah, exactly. That\'s why we need drug tests published in detail,and either CORRECT Federal oversight (not the current bill), or WADA to come in and take it over. Tracks won\'t do what they should and spend the money unless someone makes them.

[sighthound]

Actually, Jerry, I have more insight into whether \"dopers are caught or not\" than you do.

[sighthound]

TGJB saying Dr. Maylin could be covering stuff up is beyond absurd.  Simply insultingly ridiculous.

[sighthound]

That would be a great idea (publish treatments) but again, with our emphasis on claiming races supporting the industry, I can\'t see that ever happening.  We\'d have to change the clamining game markedly and remove a lot of it from racing.

As yes, I know people (vets) that do what trainers wish, rather than what is in the best interests of the horse.  Yes, some push the therapeutic window (repeated joint injections at the trainer request too close together, etc).

That\'s the biggest mistreatment of horses on the backstretch, as you say.  Pick your clients carefully, and say no to some.

[TGJB]

I\'m going to give you time to read carefully and apologize for that.

As for the other one about knowing more about it than I do, you either can back that up with answers to the points I raised or not. If you can, do so. Right now.

[sighthound]

No, you go right ahead assuming somebody gave a horse rat poison as an anticoagulant.

It\'s not the top 5 reasons a horse would have broudificoum at trace amounts present in it\'s system at necropsy, but let\'s not let reality interfer with a good theory.

[sighthound]

You know, TGJB, I have a lot of respect for what you do professionally.

You don\'t return the favor, do you?  

Because yeah - I say a licensed veterinarian on the backstretch clearly knows a lot more about what happens there, regarding horses, drugs, medicine - than someone who is not a vet, doesn\'t know medicine, doesn\'t prescribe, doesn\'t treat horses, and does not work on the backstretch.

[TGJB]

There are people who are good and not so good at all professions, I have no idea which you are, but this has absolutely nothing to do with that. I\'m going to give you about an hour before you get barred from here. You can read the Maylin stuff and withdraw your characterization of me (or not), and you can back up your assertion about knowing more about it than me in light of the specific points I made (or not). At that point you will be blocked, or not.

[sighthound]

Okay, I withdraw my characterization of what you said about Maylin. It was wrong.

But I stand by everything else I have said.

I have been a member of this board for some years, and have always posted in an professional, educational and factually accurate manner.

And you sure as hell know it.

So as far as your insulting attempt to characterize me as a veterinarian of questionable ability, and threatening to block me - be my guest.

[vp612]

I am not a vet,am never on the backstretch, and have never owned a horse.Having said that ,is it wrong to believe that something is not right when one guy has 7 horses die out of 16 and some kind of rat poison is found in their system that is not used at that track.With everything going on with the amazing \"forward moves\"that these trainers are getting something is definitely not right,Baffert\'s first time starters run crazy numbers first time out, just about every time.On this one I side with TJB.

[TGJB]

I did not say you were a vet of questionable or any other kind of ability, I said I don\'t know (you never did any work for me or anyone else I know), and I said it was irrelevant. You know why I said that? BECAUSE I DON\'T KNOW. You should try that some time.

If you have answers to the points I made in response to you-- as opposed to a simple assertion implying you have some professional knowledge that proves me wrong-- SAY WHAT THEY ARE. You have a bunch of specific points to deal with-- lack of testing (Pennsylvania), incorrect methodology (Maryland), shoddy lab work AND lack of testing AND a buried positive (Kentucky). If you can show either I am wrong about those things or that they are irrelevant-- that despite those things being true you have a basis to say most druggers are still being caught-- do so now.

You posted in a completely proper manner until very recently, until you started taking shots using characterizations that were offensive and making assertions that were false as if you had some professional knowledge indicating they were true. They are not. You are not more up on this than I am, not even close. I\'m dealing with the top people in (and out of) the industry who are trying to deal with the drug issue-- Jim Gagliano of the Jockey Club, Kevin Cummins of Senator Udall\'s office who is in charge of the proposed Federal legislation, Rick Arthur, the KTOB, etc. You are not. You are an anonymous poster incorrectly characterizing me and my statements.

[sighthound]

Your straw men are ridiculous - I never said any of that was wrong.  You bring up random factoids as a jumping-off point to accuse trainers of cheating based only upon your speed figures - with your random unassociated factoids supposedly evidence to support your accusation?

Sorry - there is no logic there.  There is no critical reasoning there.  There is no smoking gun there.

There\'s cheating, but believe me, but speed figures are not any type of reliable evidence of same.

You don\'t like that opinion being put forth, block me.

[TGJB]

Speaking of straw men.

You made the statement that most cheaters were being caught. I pointed out you had no basis for that statement, and why. You have had several chances to show I was wrong and still haven\'t come up with anything to back up what you said, let alone in light of the things I brought up showing NOBODY is in a position to say that. I\'m leaving the office, if you haven\'t by the time I get in tomorrow or retracted your statements about that and me you\'re gone.

By the way-- it\'s because what you say is not true that there\'s all the activity by all those other people in the industry to change things.

[sighthound]

What cheaters are NOT being caught?   What undetectable substance are they using that escapes detection today?

Who, right now at Keeneland, is cheating and not being caught?

What percentage of trainers do you think are cheating at Kee?

The basis for MY statement that most cheaters are being caught is the lack of positives that come back, and the ones that do.  Public, quantifiable, documented.

You dismiss Kee testing today, because they changed labs in a previous year?

And what the hell am I saying that \"isn\'t true\"?  I say there are cheaters, I say they are using stuff that isn\'t detectable - I just don\'t think it\'s as rampant as some create in their minds.  We don\'t need an axe - we need surgical precision.  And a hell of a lot more money. As I have previously said, I think every horse in competition should be tested.

I can think of multiple valid reasons a horse moves up when they go to a certain trainer, having zero to do with doping a horse.  I\'ve seen trainers I know are clean be accused of cheating (not necessarily by you, but on this board) ... based upon subjective speed figures?  Because some guy who doesn\'t know the first thing about horses, or training, thinks it must be doping because they can\'t imagine being able to explain why the horse ran so much better than they thought it would?

Heavy dose of reality and science needed in this sport.