Sighthound suspension

[TGJB]

I decided to withdraw posting privileges from Sight for 3 months rather than giving the death penalty. But I want to explain why I did anything at all, because it\'s important.

Yes, I\'m pissed that someone is coming on my own board and saying I\'m crying wolf, delusional, a conspiracy theorist etc. But that\'s not the reason, at least mostly.

I\'ve been fighting to clean the game up re drug cheaters for more than a decade. A lot of people grumbled but didn\'t do anything-- horseplayers are a grumbling but apathetic bunch-- so I set out to use this board to attract attention to the problem, make contact with people who could get something done, gather and distribute information, and explain how our data can be used to track unlikely move-ups. The biggest hurdle I (and others, especially as time went on) had to overcome is EXACTLY the position that Sight has been taking-- that the industry doesn\'t have a problem, it has a \"problem of perception\", as industry executives used to say. That all you horseplayers who see the moveups coming from the same guys are an uninformed lot who don\'t understand what\'s happening, and that drug test results shouldn\'t be released to the general public because you are all incapable of understanding them properly (a position Sight took in a post within the last couple of days).

That position coming from anyone is enraging to someone who knows factually what I know (and have detailed here), aside from what I can see in the data. But in this case it\'s much worse than that. Sight is putting being a veterinarian and working on the backside as CREDIBILITY for that position. It\'s been like trying to turn around an aircraft carrier for me and others, but the industry is finally starting to move in the right direction-- and the last thing we need is someone saying that they have credible knowledge that there is no significant problem, some of us are just imagining things, the game is cleaner than it has ever been, cheaters are usually being caught. That\'s not just enraging, it\'s potentially destructive. And I\'m not having it on my board.

[miff]

I\'ll give you another scalp,mine.Much of what you said about Sight is \"slanted\"

1.Sight NEVER said the industry does not have a problem or that there is NO cheating and its all perception.

2.Sight explained that is difficult for the conspiratorial minded player to get their arms around husbandry and many other legal methods of moving a horses up. To you guys all move ups are not possible except if its say Shug or Mott, but not Rudy/Tricky et al(only witnessed that up close and personal for like years) Is it possible that aside from all they do,tapping, injecting, stacking et al that they are also doing something illegal? yes possible but scrutiny around certain trainers is heavy and detailed, there are no \"major\"positives to confirm a smoking gun.

3.Beyer/Rags/TG all show trainers that get a horses and it suddenly improves dramatically, like 25-40% of the time, first out.Far more prevalent at the Mickey Mouse cess pool venues than at the major ones.

4.You write of things that happened years ago in Maryland,PA(all true I\'m certain but what does that have to do with today. Kentucky changed labs because of poor/no testing. How does that back into TAP being 0-32.Suddenly TAP does not move up horses illegally but does it from inception(new from you) His multi million dollar operation is all a fraud, there are no talented athletes in the barn.Doc is solely responsible for the barns success! Thats not conspiratorial, naw!


When people spend countless hours,money(not enough) on every aspect of securing the NY racing game and there is still doubt about the liberal use of ILLEGAL stuff, wadda gonna do?. Much more transparency could help with perception but I\'ll guess the same guys are gonna win at the same strike rates for the most part. If they could weed out the real illegal stuff, which accounts for a small portion of the garbage written, it may help somewaht but there has been and always will be the conspiracy idiot, every race is fixed, football game, basketball game etc. No, conspiracy idiot, only some!

Leave you with famous words of the banished one, \"who needs to cheat, got tons of stuff to help me\"

Sayonara

[TGJB]

Whaaa?

I\'ll let what Sight said speak for itself, everyone read it, I don\'t have to do a greatest hits. But saying most cheaters get caught, without anything to back it up despite being asked repeatedly and evidence being presented showing there was no way to possibly know that, was the breaking point.

You\'re dead wrong about cheating not going on at the major venues-- that\'s where Allday did what he did, by his own admission, even if you don\'t believe we could see it in the data. (By the way, everyone on this board commented about Frankel moving up horses in 2001, long before I found out in 2008 that\'s when he got involved with Allday). But let\'s say it was true-- if it goes on at what you consider the non-major venues, which comprise the vast majority of tracks and races in the country, a) Sight is wrong, and b) the industry has a real problem, even if YOU don\'t bet those tracks.

The Pletcher paragraph is a complete misrepresentation of my position, but I\'m pretty sure nobody cares. I know I don\'t.

Anybody know when Rudy started training? I would like to post sheets for his first 30 or so starters.

[magicnight]

Equibase shows RR\'s training started in 2010. Don\'t know which month.

[TGJB]

John-- I think you\'re the first person to ever accuse me of editing myself and being diplomatic.

By the way, any time you want to chime in on the Allday stuff, jump right in.

[dannyboy135]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I\'ll give you another scalp,mine.Much of what you
> said about Sight is \"slanted\"
>
> 1.Sight NEVER said the industry does not have a
> problem or that there is NO cheating and its all
> perception.
>
> 2.Sight explained that is difficult for the
> conspiratorial minded player to get their arms
> around husbandry and many other legal methods of
> moving a horses up. To you guys all move ups are
> not possible except if its say Shug or Mott, but
> not Rudy/Tricky et al(only witnessed that up close
> and personal for like years) Is it possible that
> aside from all they do,tapping, injecting,
> stacking et al that they are also doing something
> illegal? yes possible but scrutiny around certain
> trainers is heavy and detailed, there are no
> \"major\"positives to confirm a smoking gun.
>
> 3.Beyer/Rags/TG all show trainers that get a
> horses and it suddenly improves dramatically, like
> 25-40% of the time, first out.Far more prevalent
> at the Mickey Mouse cess pool venues than at the
> major ones.
>
> 4.You write of things that happened years ago in
> Maryland,PA(all true I\'m certain but what does
> that have to do with today. Kentucky changed labs
> because of poor/no testing. How does that back
> into TAP being 0-32.Suddenly TAP does not move up
> horses illegally but does it from inception(new
> from you) His multi million dollar operation is
> all a fraud, there are no talented athletes in the
> barn.Doc is solely responsible for the barns
> success! Thats not conspiratorial, naw!
>
>
> When people spend countless hours,money(not
> enough) on every aspect of securing the NY racing
> game and there is still doubt about the liberal
> use of ILLEGAL stuff, wadda gonna do?. Much more
> transparency could help with perception but I\'ll
> guess the same guys are gonna win at the same
> strike rates for the most part. If they could weed
> out the real illegal stuff, which accounts for a
> small portion of the garbage written, it may help
> somewaht but there has been and always will be the
> conspiracy idiot, every race is fixed, football
> game, basketball game etc. No, conspiracy idiot,
> only some!
>
> Leave you with famous words of the banished one,
> \"who needs to cheat, got tons of stuff to help
> me\"
>
> Sayonara


Miff,
    I\'m with you.  I think there is far less cheating than the rank and file horseplayer believes there to be.
    What is worse missing the few who get by with cheating are alarming the horse playing world by saying our sport is riddled with dirt, cheats and thieves?
     Transparency isn\'t the answer.  Each time a trainer gets fined or days for a minor overage of some therapeutic medication the Public Alarm is sounded.
     I\'m surely not saying further testing and rules enforcement isn\'t important I just think it needs to be a balanced approach.
     On the other side of the leger I\'ve had numerous trainers who have been unfairly treated because of the Absolute Insurer rule.  
     Finally, I think Sightsounds contributions were sincere and well meant.  I think it is unfair and ill advised to have him removed

[JohnTChance]

The only thing I have to say about Steve Allday is that I met him a few times and that he seemed like a really nice guy.

[alm]

From a former literature major I can add: he was supercilious too.

From a horse owner (me again) I can tell you that there is nothing more maddening than watching your non-drugged runner come second to a hopped up horse racing out of a dirty stable --- further knowing that the \'testers\' are in over their heads vis-a-vis these guys.

Hang out in the walking ring.  It happens every day and it\'s obvious.

[dannyboy135]

Alm,
   \"Hang out in the walking ring. It happens every day and it\'s obvious.\"
I\'ve been owning and Breeding for over 30 years and have spent countless hours in the paddock.  It isn\'t obvious to me could you explain?
Danny

[vp612]

What needs to be explained?Buy this product,ragozin,or look at the beyer numbers and see the way they jump when these guys claim a horse.You have to be blind not to see it.

[TGJB]

Vito-- you would think so. But a lot of people either don\'t use figures (they look at win percentage, so they don\'t see the jumps) or they aren\'t paying close attention. Or in some cases they may not handicap seriously at all, just own horses or (ahem) work on the backstretch. It took me a while to get Rick Arthur and others to see how figures could help them identify problems.

[sighthound]

I have NEVER said the industry doesn\'t have a problem.  

I have ALWAYS taken the position that there is cheating,cheaters are slime,it must be stopped.

The only thing I have ever done on this board is try to interject some reality and fact into the conspiracy theories.

Your blatent mischaracterization of what I\'ve said here over the years is reason enough to laugh at your \"I\'ve suspended Sight because my ego is bruised\".

I\'ll continue doing well for, and helping, race horses on a daily basis.  You continue to post for your acolytes on the internet.

[TGJB]

For the record, I\'ve gotten a series of texts and emails thanking me for doing this. Goodbye.

[touchgold]

there are an abundance of 5% trainers, and probably the equivalent of with vets. Its guys with these %s who think the game is clean and cheaters are getting caught.

[bellsbendboy]

Just an FYI Vito,

Years ago we claimed horses with some success.  Our group included; a former jock 300 wins, an ivy league degree in animal science (or similar), two capable trainers and a thirty year Kentucky outrider.

A few instances;  we claimed a horse at Churchill that ran off EVERY morning for $7500.  We changed the bit and ran it back for $15 and it won.

We had White Belt who broke his maiden for a nickle winning by thirteen and was claimed from us.  That trainer, still around could not figure out the horses feet, he was a stallwalker and always tried to get out.  We took him back when he dropped him and cleaned his stall round the clock eventually running him back at Keeneland for what we claimed him for.  He won handy and paid some $57.

My point is that new barns move up horses routinely.  Of course many go the other way.  To say that drugs are involved (illegal ones) is copping out to good horsemanship.  Using integers to measure performance exascerbates the moveups.

Lastly, i am not naive that PED\'s are not out there, but they are very few in number.  Unfortunately, one positive from a prominent trainer gets more publicity than a host of solid day to day horsemanship ever recieves. bbb