Sighthound suspension

[vp612]

They have a long way to go to save  this game,but cleaning it up would be a good start.This game used to have great horses Ruffian,Slew,Forego,Affirmed,Alydar
Secretariat,and others .WHERE are they.?Racing needs stars ,they have none.They have watered down  the product because all the tracks care about is the takeout.Simulcasting has hurt the game rather than help it.Nobody goes to the track.

[jimbo66]

Vito,

You start naming Forego and Ruffian, you belong at the Thorograph seminar at Carolina Barbecue up at Saratoga.

30 people show up.  Average age 77.5.  Average age drops substantially for the weekends TGJB gives the seminar instead of TGAB.  Both because of their difference in age and because TGAB has a \"cult-like following\" of women in their 20\'s and 30\'s.......

Jim

[TGJB]

You\'re killing me.

[JimP]

All valid points but my questions weren\'t really addressing \"the game\" in general. My questions were specifically addressed to the posters on this board. Why do YOU play the game, buy the sheets, own horses if you believe cheating is so widespread? Of course one response is that YOU don\'t believe cheating is widespread. That was the Sighthound position. So my questions are to those who disagreed with Sighthound and believe that cheating is rampant. Or as Frank D said The game has been ruined\". I\'m strugging to understand how one can think the game has been ruined, that cheating is widespread, and the results are determined by which trainers have the best drugs. So I\'m looking for some personal testimonials along the lines of \"I believe the game has been runied by the rampant cheating, but I play it anyway because ...\" I would really like to hear Covello explain why he would invest so much money in racing horses in an environment where cheating is so rampant.

[Edgorman]

So true. So why not embrace the change. We are not going to the track.  Have the family gather round the tv. Interrupt a boring game and get a rebate. Hook those youngens. Every thirty minutes we can win

[TGJB]

Besides which how would Jimbo know, he doesn\'t come when I do the seminar anyway.

Meanwhile, Steve is losing the location, so we\'re going to have to find a new one. I\'m going to start working on that after the TC.

[Edgorman]

Go head to head with you man. 77???

[jimbo66]

Very true TGJB.

I have \"sheets\" on the Seminar deliverers and I only come when the deliverer has a high ROI...........

[FrankD.]

I guess that means the pot roast sandwich w/ horseradish & Carolina Red Hot won\'t be re-named the Frank D.

DRAT !!!!

[moosepalm]

JimP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All valid points but my questions weren\'t really
> addressing \"the game\" in general. My questions
> were specifically addressed to the posters on this
> board. Why do YOU play the game, buy the sheets,
> own horses if you believe cheating is so
> widespread? Of course one response is that YOU
> don\'t believe cheating is widespread. That was the
> Sighthound position. So my questions are to those
> who disagreed with Sighthound and believe that
> cheating is rampant. Or as Frank D said The game
> has been ruined\". I\'m strugging to understand how
> one can think the game has been ruined, that
> cheating is widespread, and the results are
> determined by which trainers have the best drugs.
> So I\'m looking for some personal testimonials
> along the lines of \"I believe the game has been
> runied by the rampant cheating, but I play it
> anyway because ...\" I would really like to hear
> Covello explain why he would invest so much money
> in racing horses in an environment where cheating
> is so rampant.

Jim, it\'s a percentage game, in nearly every way, and it\'s no different with the \"cheating.\"  Since none of us, including Sighthound, know how pervasive it is, it becomes one more unknown with which we must deal.  I think there are a number of ways one can do that without having to go cold turkey on the sport.  If you base your suppositions on the kind of data analysis JB does, then perhaps you can isolate some individuals in some situations, and either avoid them or exploit them, if the percentages dictate.  There are some tracks which arouse more suspicion, and you can simply eliminate those, if your trust factor gets sufficiently diluted.  

Let\'s take this Keeneland meet, for example, which is normally one of my favorites.  This meet, however, wasn\'t, because Mike Maker sucked some of the life right out of it.  Does this mean I think he was dirty?  No, because I have no way of knowing, but even more to the point, why would he when he\'s a sharp trainer, he has all of Ramsey\'s money at his disposal, and it became very clear at the end of last year that they were pointing to the claiming crown being moved to Gulfstream, and carry it forward right to Keeneland.  At some point, whether he cheats or not, it creates the same effect of dominance, short prices and diluted value in the way that I like to wager.  So, there are a variety of ways that certain behaviors, for whatever reason, are going to alter your betting patterns, and you adjust, accordingly.  The net effect is quite likely an overall reduction of play, and we\'ve seen testimonials to that effect on this board from some serious players.  But, it\'s a game we still love, with enough upside for us to still want to keep a skin in it.  Unfortunately, the shadow cast by the uncertain element of cheating, has changed the conversation, and it probably has embittered players more than actually driving them to the sidelines.

[high roller]

Wow - be careful your asking the $64,000 question -and it may get you banned!

[jbee]

Background - 53 yrs old weekend warrior and have been playing the races since I\'m 16. I don\'t use the sheets solely the drf. I push 2-4k a month through the windows. Play 70 pct from home and 30pct from the race palace  in ny or at Belmont when there is live racing. I DO believe there is cheating going on and the actual percentage I will leave to everyones own thoughts as we will never be able to quantify an actual number. The claim that trainers are cheating is not new to the game many have said that NY trainers like  Moschera, Ferriola, Barrera, and others were very strong bets first off and they moved up there horses considerably off the claim. I don\'t have the data but I am confident these trainers stats would be comparable to today\'s trainers RR, Ness, Zadie et al off the claim and yield short payoffs when live. The game hasn\'t changed just the faces. If the blue bloods didn\'t clean it up quietly back then it will take an awful lot to do it now. Therefore, certain trainers off the claim are integrated into my handicapping, for it not to be would be foolish given the data.

In spite of it all I still play this game because I love it. Like everyone else when I cash a winning bet all of what\'s wrong with this game is quickly forgotten. I believe the only way this game gets fixed, is by a)those in charge being honest with themselves and admit that there are problems b)prioritize the issues with fairness to the gambling public and horses c)formalize a racing policy of all racetracks with the formation of racing board and a commissioner who has complete oversight and jurisdiction. Imagine each football or baseball team governing themselves,(yes problems still do occur) but the teeth of the commissioners office and it\'s sanctioning powers are deferents that help in preventing widespread cheating. Lastly, I believe the only way this game gets cleaned up in a more expedient manner is through a WHISTLEBLOWER. Giving a Alladay immunity to discuss and gloat what transpires does NOT solve the problem it only exacerbates it. Don\'t vets have a moral and professional obligation!!!

In spite of it all I continue to play and love this game.

[richiebee]

This is great, with a lot of old timers chiming in, with great horses like Forego
getting remembered, and of course with Jimbo alienating us all by revealing that
he is \"only\" 46.

Many talk about all that is bad with racing now: \"Cheating\", lack of transparency,
high takeout, short fields, horses who only need to make 8 or 9 starts per year to
be profitable with an inflated purse structure (or are only physically capable of
making 8 or 9 starts per year), a diluted genetic pool, lack of national or even
regional leadership, equine fatalities, crumbling facilities, apathy on the part
of racetrack management towards two groups which support the game -- backstretch
workers and the wagering public. I am sure I have missed quite a few.

It is important to remember that there have been many developments which have made
the sport/hobby/business/escape of horseplaying more enjoyable and potentially
more profitable in recent years. My frame of reference is that when I first
started off playing in the mid 70s (yes Jimbo you were only a wee lad then) I was
exposed to two extremes in racing -- the dirt cheap tracks in sourthern Illinois
and, during summer vacations from college, NYRA, specifically Belmont and
Saratoga, in its heyday. The NYRA facilities were still being maintained
fastidiously and the 1970s was the \"Decade of Champions\", with three Triple Crown
winners and a near miss later in the decade who may have been as talented as any
of the other three. There were true champions on both sides of the pond.

As great as NYRA was then your choices were limited to (a) attending the races
live or (b) sitting in a decrepit OTB where your winnings were surcharged and
quite possibly, you could only listen to, but not see, the races.

Today we have simulcasting at the racetracks and to me, the greatest innovation of
all, Living Room Downs. Imagine that with the right ADW, not only are your
winnings not surcharged, but if you wager lustily enough, you may be eligible for
a decent sized rebate on the money you push through the windows.

Trying to remember, and maybe someone equally as old and decrepit as me can help
me remember, what the NYRA wagering menu was like in the 1970s. There were
certainly no Pick 3s, Pick 4s, or Pick 5s. I believe there was only one trifecta,
on the ninth and final race of the day. Two doubles a day, races 1/2 and 8/9; a
middle double on races 6/7 was later added. Quinellas on races 2 and 4. And lets
not forget that the minimum wager at NYRA was $2; one winter I spent at FG in New
Orleans in the early 1980s the minimum win wager was $3, and I seem to recall in
the late 70s early 80s that the minimum exacta wager at California tracks was $5.

Enough already. You get the point. As a downtrodden lot, we as horseplayers are
much better off in the 21st Century than we were way back when, in the Decade of
Champions, which as great as it was in some ways, may as well have been the dark
ages.

[PapaChach]

Amen, richiebee: \"Living Room Downs\" is the only reason this married-with-kids guy gets to play the races at all. I can sneak in some handicapping after the kiddies get to bed on Friday night, or maybe before they wake up on Saturday, and then I leave my \'puter on the NYRA Rewards page all afternoon, checking in and making plays in between bouts of food shopping, laundry, transporting kids to and from play dates, cleaning, trips to the local playground, listening to my band of the month, and cooking. Going to the parlor all afternoon and leaving the domestic scene all to the wife is not an option, and I\'d feel lousy about myself if it was. As it is I consider myself lucky to get up to the Spa four or five Saturdays with the oldest son when the show comes to the neighborhood.

Seems like there\'s a lot of hand-wringing about the decline in on-track attendance and handle, but to me the flip side of this is that the industry hasn\'t done a good job exploiting the play-from-home angle. Think about football; the popularity boggles the mind, and the on-site attendance is admittedly important, if they held studio games like they run studio racing pretty much everywhere now maybe it wouldn\'t hold the same appeal, but let\'s face it, guys watching and betting is where they make their hay, no? The racing industry seems to look at playing from home as evidence their model isn\'t working, I think they have it ass-backwards, they need to be pushing the wonders of playing from home in between everything else we gotta get done. Hitting a 7-1 shot minutes after finishing dinner prep feels just as good as hitting one while sitting in the stands, maybe even better; seems they frown on uncorking a bottle of something good in the stands, but my wife doesn\'t seem to mind, as long as I pour hers first.

Just my $0.02......

[moosepalm]

PapaChach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Seems like there\'s a lot of hand-wringing about
> the decline in on-track attendance and handle, but
> to me the flip side of this is that the industry
> hasn\'t done a good job exploiting the
> play-from-home angle.


This is where you find yourself in the midst of a paradigm shift.  Your example of football transitioning to the living room is one in which the owners can have their cake and eat it too, in terms of augmenting use of existing facilities.  Racing is not in any kind of growth stage, so the Living Room Downs crowd will only make on site attendance even more sparse.  I don\'t know the economics of the game, but how big a piece of it is tied into on track attendance, independent of handle?  What becomes of these dinosaurs, built to accommodate tens of thousands, having fewer paying customers than employees?  One obvious answer is attrition of smaller tracks, unless they\'re kept afloat by slots, as is the case with many right now.

The other issue is the social aspect of the game.  While you can\'t beat the convenience of placing bets out of your La-Z-Boy, part of the attraction is the give and take among peers, and the positive reinforcement one gains from knowing that others have also just been screwed out of a deserving winner.  I\'m not sure which pup tent the TG Saratoga seminar will call home this summer, but where else can you find such a motley crew of punters who can solve most of the world\'s problems in less time than it takes Andy Serling to misdiagnose the upcoming race?

A partial solution may lie in social media itself, and this is one area where the sport might, if not get ahead of the curve, at least not get buried by it.  I\'m sure people already use E-mail for this purpose, but it\'s unwieldy compared to what could be done in a vehicle geared toward providing a platform for immediate interaction among a group.  The technology exists, and if I\'m ignorant about it, my sixteen year old isn\'t.  And that\'s what they\'ll come to expect -- the cyber replication of the social part of the on track experience, without the overpriced beer.