Dark Cove

[vp612]

I don\'t thing you are understanding this.When he was winning at 15% he worked 9 hours a day,now he is at 30% working 18 hours a day.It\'s really a math thing.

[TGJB]

So anyway, Dark Cove ran a 0 1/2. Best previous number over two years was a 3, and he\'s a 6yo.

I normally look at trainers, not owners, since we don\'t keep owners in the data base, and I have trainers on the sheets when I do a day, so I look over when I see a jump up. But since this conversation began I noticed an unlikely jumpup for a Ramsey horse trained by Catalano at Keeneland Friday-- Catalano got his share when he was training for Calabrese, but has not since then, as far as I can tell. If someone wants to email me a list of Ramsey starters at the Kee meet, regardless of trainer, and a list of Maker starters not for Ramsey, I would be interested in running that as well as the Maker overall runners. There\'s some chance this is owner specific, not trainer. Wouldn\'t be the first time.

[TreadHead]

Was just looking at the Redboard from Sat night (keep in mind this is before Sat races), it shows Maker/Rosario have teamed up 59 times, winning 36% and a 2.16 ROI

But the best part is 52PERCENT !!!!! OF THOSE WERE NEW TOPS and another 26% were pairs.  Last 90 days you are showing Maker overall 40% NEW TOPS 25% pairs

[vp612]

So you are saying this horse a 6yr old ran a lifetime 3 point new top and Maker had him 3 weeks.There really is nothing left to say.One more thing IT IS the owners who are doing this and not the trainers.The owners have to know.They both know.

[plasticman]

Wasnt the horse strangled coming to the wire and probably could have run faster if the jock asked him for his life?

[shanahan]

It got to the point at GP where I was singling Ramsey/Maker.  But in a casual conversation he was telling anyone that would listen that he (Ramsey) was winning twice!  By claiming, then running them a tad below in class but betting quite good amounts.  Plus he could win owners title...made sense to me in an awkward way.  He won with several trainers, including Wes Ward.

[TreadHead]

The 40% new tops over the last 90 days for Maker is on a sample of 103 starts on last Sat sheets.  Can you remember any other trainer who has ever shown a 40% new top rate over at least a 100 start sample space?

[TGJB]

I almost never look at that stat. I have promised Richiebee for years I would take a look at the methodology we use to produce that to see if it\'s accurate, one of these days...

I don\'t remember whether we only use horses that have already made X starts for that trainer, or how many starts the horse has to have in its life, or how we do it in general. But certainly you can look at it relative to itself-- you probably have a better idea what a big percentage is than I do.

[mbeychok]

All trainers win for Calabrese it appears. Don\'t know why. As for Maker - check this race out at CD the last on Saturday. Punctual Jeff was a 10 start maiden. Closed into a 49.4 and 114.4 pace. I\'m sorry did I say \"closed\" that is inaccurate. He blasted off in mid stretch. Guess he really liked that CD turf course.

http://www.churchilldowns.com/racing-wagering/toteboard/2013-04-27/11

[bellsbendboy]

Jerry do not want to get long-winded Derby week about this and to be frank i made a compelling case that Dark Cove would improve immensely on another thread.

Yet in the overall scope Ramsey is very astute and spends money.  When any of his trainers claim one they immediately take a blood test.  The $50 or so results are back in a day and during that time the horse gets a complete going over.

Many times they are sent to the hyperbaric chamber.  As far as i know there are only two in KY.  One is at Winstar and Elliott can tell you way more than i can.  The other is about five minutes from Keenland and the Ramsey vans are frequent visitors.

The pure oxygen treatment can provide immediate relief for animals suffering from chronic joint inflamation and/ or soft tissue injury.  I am told treatments are about $400 and can have a similar impact on a horse that Lasix has on a bleeder.  Few outfits use them.  bbb

[TGJB]

I know a fair amount about hyperbaric chambers and while they can help with problems they dont make horses faster.

You made a less than compelling case about why he would WIN a lot of races, and no case as to why his horses would get FASTER just because they were facing weaker competition (even if we accepted that a lower claiming price means that automatically). Don\'t know if you use our data or not, but when we post sheets for these horses you can explain to me how the jumpups are a result of who they ran against.

[bellsbendboy]

Hello Michael,

Congrats on winning a contest last year.

As for Punctual Jeff I see nothing noteworthy.  His prior four races indicated he would fly late and would not be a maiden much longer.  In order;

2/23/12  Jeff\" was a tough trip 2nd with a huge late rally

5/27/12 Bel  Another huge late rally to get third money as the favorite

2/22/13  GP  big rally third.

4/5/13 GP  A solid third behind a favored entry.  The horse that ran second on that closing day card also ran at Churchill Saturday night breaking his maiden at thirteen to ten an hour before Jeff\" broke his.  bbb

[JimP]

\"hyperbaric chambers and while they can help with problems they dont make horses faster\"

Are you saying that you would not expect a horse that is running with pain to run faster when the pain is removed? Seems counter-intuitive. Can you elaborate?

[TGJB]

No. I\'m saying that it can\'t make him run faster than his ability lets him run (which certain drugs like EPO can, which is why they\'re called performance enhancers). There is no question fixing problems (one way or another) can bring an out of form horse into form. But it can\'t (for example) make a 6yo with 40 starts run faster than he has EVER run, even when he was in good form. (See-- Caixa Electronica).

This again goes to a point I have made repeatedly-- you don\'t draw conclusions from one jump-up. You do it when a trainer is getting a lot of them in a short period.

Or an owner.

[high roller]

Jerry - you seem to know more than Vets- have expert knowledge of every aspect of Racing- (now including these Chambers) - What exactly are your education credentials?