pagan study on lasix

[BH]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/78520/study-salix-can-lead-to-calcium-imbalance

[kekomi]

the lactic acid buffer effect explains a lot. that\'s a huge performance enhancing benefit, as big or bigger than blood packing.

i\'d be curious to find out if the lactic acid buffering effect is dose-dependent--give an extra large dose before a big race and get a huge result...likewise, refrain from dosing after a big effort, or give a smaller dose, esp. if you have a quick turn-around between races to keep the horse\'s appetite and weight up, results in a subpar effort...you couldn\'t dose too many times in quick succession though, because you\'d have a horse that feels like shit, which no amount of buffering is going to compensate for...

aside: it\'s a little disingenuous for pagan to act surprised about the calcium-leaching side-effects of lasix, since it says that right on the package insert, along with its potassium-leaching side effects, the risk of dangerously increased serum phosphorus levels, and a black box warning to have blood tests to check kidney functioning regularly due the the fact that raised serum phosphorus levels coupled with excessive urination lead to kidney failure. and i\'m referring to the packaging for animal-use.

i had an animal on lasix for cardiomyopathy--she had to have blood tests every two weeks, was on high dosages calcium and potassium supplements, at least until she stopped eating...loss of appetite and extreme weight loss are other well-known side effect of lasix, which also appear on the package inserts...i put her down after three months on it, even though on lasix she could have had 3-5 more years--her life on lasix wasn\'t living, it was suffering.


predictions:

1. if you had access to a horse\'s lasix schedule, it would mirror the horse\'s racing pattern,esp. the bounces

2. oxbow\'s belmont will be as crappy as orb\'s preakness; will take charge will have a huge belmont (premise being, one got the post-derby booster shot for the preakness,the other will get it for the belmont; if both end up with a classic win, all owners are happy and lukas comes out  of the triple crown smelling like a rose)

3. if you inquire into orb\'s preakness lasix dose, it will have been smaller than his normal dose; the smaller dose is the reason he has rebounded from his preakness effort so quickly.

4. the reason mylute was destroyed by his effort in the preakness, and reportedly gasping for air at after the finish, was due two big lasix doses back to back in a short amount of time, without bloodpacking, resulting in a severe oxygen deficit, with a limited ability to recover due to his lasix-induced-loss of appetite (the excess-post-exercise-oxygen-consumption required to return a body to stasis after intense exercise requires a large increase in fuel--the body canablizes itself depleting it\'s fat stores. this is supposed to offset by a post-exertion increase in appetite, but this doesn\'t happen in race horses due to lasix\'s appetite suppressant attributes).

[plasticman]

You say that Mylute was reportedly gasping for air after the finish, may i ask who reported that?(not disputing that its true, just curious where it came from) Thanks.

[catcapper]

Astute post. I think there is a certain disengenuousness to the whole “article”. That Lasix depletes calcium, etc., is common knowledge to anyone who seeks it out. I, another nobody, researched it years ago for my own purposes. I found all this internet years ago.

I am an incurable optimist, but there is a healthy skeptic within and that part of me smells market softening for new product.

“...That\'s the commercial side we\'re trying to do.\" That’s the last sentence. Stay tuned to dealer near you.

Plasticman has a good question, though. But nevertheless as to that answer, I say this article is not what it seems at first glance. Read the language carefully.

[Tavasco]

So I read through the aticle again as you suggested. I looked into  the society Dr. Pagan was presenting his six horse study to and a few coloful details caught my attention.

The study is being presented this week in Mescalero N.M.

Mescalero N.M. is an Apache Indian village with a population of 1,203 per the 2000 census. It is home to the \"Inn of The Mountain Gods\" a casino resort facility. The symposium is being hosted by New Mexico State University. There are 304 registrants and complaints regarding increased prices and the lack of day rates.

From the Thursday program
7:00 pm – 8:30 pm
Race Handicapping Workshop (Mescalero F)

?

[Paolo]

Lose 40 lbs of water weight? That\'s about 5 gallons. Guess the old saying about pissing like a racehorse is pretty appropriate.

40 lbs is also equal to 8 TG points. I guess dead weight has a lot more effect than the horse\'s water weight? Or else JB should have noticed a significant performance enhancement to first time lasix users just on weight alone, without even considering the extra boost from lactic acid buffering.

Kekomi, regardless of your qualifications I found your perspective quite interesting. And since it was phrased as a question of Lasix dosage, I personally don\'t understand the need to explain who you are or are not. I have read so many unsubstantiated claims and predictions on this board that I filter my intake accordingly; but I do like hearing unconventional thinkers.

[Paolo]

I see this subject has already been brought up. Probably many times, but here is a link to a 2009 thread.
https://www.thorograph.com/phorum/read.php?1,53182,53182#msg-53182

[Boscar Obarra]

nothing new about it apparently

http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/11/24/forgotten-side-of-the-salix-debate-the-calcium-connection/

[kekomi]

it was in one of the articles that came out when it was announced he wouldn\'t be in the belmont. it may even have been the trainer, who said it--i\'ll google the article and post a link. i\'ll try to get it up tonight after work, if not then this weekend.

[kekomi]

the interest of the company is clearly marketing and self-promotion,but there are very few news stories that are not the result of a press release from a source looking to promote itself--however, the disclosure of its effect on lactic acid made the article the most informative i\'ve ever read on bloodhorse.

i had never understood how it could have a beneficial effect on performance, especially since the negative effect of dehydration, even mild dehydration, on performance is well established. but it clearly did appear to help--so i always assumed that its benefit was solely as a masking agent for the \"real\" doping agent. it turns out that it is a pretty potent doping agent in its own right.

i had no opinion about lasix to be honest before my experience with lady (i know =) --but i didn\'t name her...and she was a very regal animal...),  but after learning more about it than anyone would ever want to know, i\'ve been  pretty vocal about it being abusive to give it to healthy animals (and unhealthy ones too for that matter).

i\'m not really surprised that the horses aren\'t already on calcium supplements, though. i would state all of the side effects, and even post links supporting what i said, only to be answered with aggressive, and sometimes hostile, responses that i didn\'t know what i was talking about, and even that i was lying, and that it had no bad side effects, and that without it racing would cease to exist because all the horses would die of EIPH, and the public would be horrified at the blood streaming out of their noses (but if racing didn\'t cease to exist after goforwand\'s very public and televised breakdown, it is pretty illogical to assume  that bloody noses would be its death nell...).

[Paolo]

Diuretics are considered the first line of defense in humans for the treatment of hypertension. I assume first-line implies they are well-tolerated and considered to be the \'safest\' course of treatment and that the benefits far outweigh the risks. I would hardly call this \'abuse\', although I can think of many other terms that are applicable.

When a particular medication has undesirable side-effects, the pharmaceutical response is usually to commercialize a second medication or supplement to offset the undesirable effects of the first medication. Seems like that is the basis of this so-called \'news\' article.

I personally find it disturbing that human \'primary care\' physicians rely so heavily on pharmaceuticals. While I am hardly an expert, I might estimate that the number of daily medications, including OTC drugs, for the majority of Americans might correlate as \'one per every ten years of age\'; i.e., a 70 y.o. might be on as many as 7 pills per day? Regardless of how incorrect this estimate is, would I consider this \'abuse\'? No. It just seems to be a practice rooted in commercially biased information that is aggressively fed to our institutions of higher learing by the pharmaceutical industry.

TGJB, I\'m sure you have looked at the average improvement in figures for FTL users. I understand that there are many confounding parameters in play (including age, effects of second-time Lasix, changes in race distance, condition of the racing surface, etc.), but I would be very interested in the results expressed as a single number, regardless of how you word all the warnings and qualifications of the results.

[TGJB]

Paolo-- We haven\'t really done that but if you listen to last year\'s BC seminar (in the Archives) you will hear a brief discussion of the subject with an estimate in the intro section.

The problem with doing a study is that virtually all horses are on it from the start now, and the ones that go on it later are doing it mostly because they actually bleed and need it, so they\'re going to improve a lot (from bad form, not from what they\'re capable of).

[BitPlayer]

There\'s actually some data on that (how old, I couldn\'t say) on the sheet of global trainer averages that used to be included with the ROTW.  You can still find a copy in some older races in the ROTW archives.

The TG-based stats are similar for both 1st and 2d Lasix (around 25% tops, a slightly smaller percentage of pairs).  From an ROI perspective, 1st Lasix was pretty bad ($1.38).

[kekomi]

here\'s the link:

http://www.drf.com/news/countdown-crown-week-21-may-24-2013

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Mylute broke flat-footed on Saturday and had Departing take his path at the start. Once again, he had that short move and burst about him, getting a rise out of Dave Rodman’s call at the quarter pole, but timing the move on a horse like this is very tough. [b]Though he finished better than some in the lane, his head was very high and gasping some late, losing all efficiency[/b].