DRF?

[Tavasco]

Once again the Daily Racing Form is surveying users. IMO, they seem lost.

I am concerned that the DRF is failing and at an increasing rate. I am troubled by this belief.

What further troubles me is that the drf offerings seem dated, obsolete and of marginal interest or value. That is a function of management not market conditions. Mismanagement offends me. Is DRF being being mismanaged by changing too little too late.

Sure market conditions are challenging. The industry is contracting. Technology changes the game. Yet the Huffington Post seems to be thriving and is not subscription based.

Maybe DRF is just morphing into a subscription based set of services and if so fine. Pay per view works. Cafeteria style works. I can\'t put my finger on what it is about their marketing that alienates me?

I sure did enjoy live at the track trying to handle the form, pencil, my burger, beer, conversation, getting to the window on time and watching the race. That was then this is now. A different experience.

Thoughts?

[joekay]

Agreed.

You can get PP\'s, and figs from a number sources so the Beyers are not as valuable as they once were, and most of the columns and stories don\'t give you much you can use as a bettor.  The \"trackmen\" are really just glorified touts, with the notable exception of Mike Welsch whose workout reports on the Derby and BC are worth every penny of $7 purchase price.

[miff]

DRF now $7.50 on Sat and Sun.Just can\'t download,look at a screen and get the same feel as holding the form in my hands. Tough to teach an old dog new tricks. Looked at Bris a bit, got ill, head spun. Couldn\'t they make it a bit busier, mercy!

New Timeform pp thing with figs being promoted at TVG, garbage!

Shocking that private equity owner of DRF has allowed it to languish.

[pacehandicapper]

For me 2 main factors have led me to replace DRF with BRIS as my main source of pps:
1. Pace figs - I find the BRIS numbers easier to work with and far more accurate than DRF, especially in grass races where final fraction is often a deciding factor.
2. Breeding - Info such as: the dam has 3 starters, all 3 are turf winners is infinitely more valuable than some random Tomlinson number based only on the sire.

[miff]

Pace,

If you are referring to Bris pace figs vs Moss pace figs, no opinion.

If you are speaking of Beyer figs vs Bris final speed figs, they are not in the same area code. Studied Bris final figs in my conversion formula and found them wanting especially in routes.After research, do not feel Bris in the same area code as TG/Beyer and Rags(to a lesser extent)The most comprehensive/consistent data overall is TG and DRF Formulator,after filtering.

No question, some nice \"stuff\"but feel Bris is trying to be all things to all players, they are certainly out there.Obviously, if you are comfortable and doing well with them,stick, not intending to sway you.

Purely computerized speed/performance figs not nearly as consistently reliable as TG/Beyer, which by the way, \"tower over the field\" overall.


Re;\"especially in grass races where final fraction is often a deciding factor\"......whoa!

Good Luck

Mike

[fjmb]

I think the main reason DRF sent the survey out was for their new DRF Bets.

Twinspires gives away Brisnet to their customers for free. DRF realized that they need to give away their DRF PP\'s to attract customers to DRF Bets.

Also, Twinspires gives away great cash back incentives for your monthly wagering totals.  My Twinspires player rep set a monthly goal for me and as I hit the targets, I receive a cash bonus each month.  

Twinspires/Brisnet is putting a hurting on DRF, in my opinion.

[Billz2000]

here\'s one of the problems with DRF.  If you buy the expanded edition on Saturday or Sunday you get 7 to 9 tracks for $7.00.  If you want to get the same tracks on-line the cost is $2.95 X 7 = 20.65.  Seems like a joke since overhead costs would be much higher on the paper edition.  Stopped buying the on-line product.

[catcapper]

IMH?O, DRF still stands as the industry standard for pps for genuine handicappers.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, the big changes and benefits in DRF pps lie in its online Formulator pps. There you can get splits/fractions for the race itself, or best yet - for each individual horse. I don\'t know that BRISnet supplies this option - I stopped using BRISnet long ago. And if you want to hold the paper in your hand, you can still print the DRF pps, and sometimes I do.

If you want Moss pace figs - they are on Formulator. If  you want breeding information - it is on Formulator. You also get replays of each horses\' races and the charts of those races. You can\'t fairly compare the print DRF to their Formulator offering. Formulator, IMO is far beyond BRISnet. There is no spin added.

For someone who only bets one tract at a time, I will pay $4.50 for all of that and not have to pay $7.50 for tracks I don\'t need and less data and info at that. Plus, if you wager enough, you get DRF pps for free. Of course I would like to see them give them away for free, but BRISnet has other money making options where DRF doesn\'t, so for DRF to give their main product away might be bad business. I will happily continue to pay for them when I don\'t wager enough to get them for free just to have them! I would have to filter through all of the fuzz with BRISnet to get to what I want - and that would be a waste of time.

I learned to read the pps with the print edition and am indeed nostalgic about it, too. But today, I do everything online. I buy and read the pps, I watch the live race feed, I wager. It is easier, cheaper, and much faster and more convenient.

I handicap by actually reading the pps first to see what story those running lines tell. Then I will use TG to confirm or add insight. I don\'t scan for other people\'s numbers first. You have to be able to read the pps. It takes time. Once I have that story understood, I look at the TG figs to confirm or add insight. And TG has great horse/trainer/jock stats. I realize many may just want it fast and easy. Maybe they don\'t have the time or patience to actually study the Form. I hate to think that is a dying art. Nah, that will never happen. The DRF has been around longer than any other rag, It ain\'t going nowhere - as long as real people keep doing real handicapping.

[Fairmount1]

DRF Formulator also allows you to see all of the races on that previous race day when you click on a horse\'s chart for his recent race at whatever track that recent race was run.  As such, even without keeping copious notes, you can see the all of the day\'s charts to see if there was a bias, a favorable running place, etc. if you are willing to do so.  This is pretty valuable information that can give you an info edge potentially.  

I have other complaints, issues, etc with DRF, paper versus online, etc., but Formulator gives the most comprehensive information to make the results of the majority of races not seem absurd or crazy with proper study and effort even if my opinion differs from the result.

[catcapper]

Wow! Thanks!
Now that is another level I wasn\'t even aware of. I\'m gonna check it out.

Now, you can\'t ask for more than that!

[P-Dub]

catcapper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMH?O, DRF still stands as the industry standard
> for pps for genuine handicappers.
>
> I handicap by actually reading the pps first to
> see what story those running lines tell. Then I
> will use TG to confirm or add insight. I don\'t
> scan for other people\'s numbers first. You have to
> be able to read the pps. It takes time. Once I
> have that story understood, I look at the TG figs
> to confirm or add insight. And TG has great
> horse/trainer/jock stats. I realize many may just
> want it fast and easy. Maybe they don\'t have the
> time or patience to actually study the Form. I
> hate to think that is a dying art. Nah, that will
> never happen. The DRF has been around longer than
> any other rag, It ain\'t going nowhere - as long as
> real people keep doing real handicapping.

What is real handicapping??  Sorry Cat, spending 4 hours on one race card isn\'t real handicapping.  At least not for me.

Its a different time, where online wagering allows you to wager on as many as 15 tracks at once.  With the internet, there are many different products. I used to buy a form, and I would dive into the pps of my favorite tracks. I enjoyed it.

With online and simulcast wagering, there are more opportunities than ever.  I need to get to the bottom of a race quicker and easier than before.  Now, if some of you can do this by going over pps in the DRF or whatever you use, then God bless you. I can\'t.

I don\'t get fulfillment by spending all night on a couple tracks, and finding a few winners.  I get fulfillment by watching my bankroll grow. I use TG on major race days, and on a daily basis I use another product. I can find a play within minutes, and many times people using the form ask...\"how on earth did you come up with that??\"  Same thing happens with TG.  I can find plays using TG much quicker than I can by pouring over PPs.  

I had a tremendous weekend, and found several price horses using my daily data that doesn\'t involve looking at pps at all. At the risk of being labeled a red boarder, I hit a $743 buck exacta at P-Town, a $39 at Arlington, $22 at Hol, and a $64 at Belmont to name a few. $508 P3 at P-town.  It didn\'t involve spending hours perusing pps.

If pouring over pps is your thing, there is nothing wrong with that.  Just don\'t say that \"real handicapping\" involves spending hours going over pps. There are many ways to find winners.

[catcapper]

P- Great post! I am all ears!

What I meant by \"real people doing real handicapping\" is actually studying the Form in detail and not taking a computer analysis to do it for you. Didn\'t mean it to sound condescending but I guess it could easily be taken that way.

Your point for the opposite method is well taken. (Perhaps I should branch out in my methodology)  I am guessing it would require scanning over a lot of other people\'s (computers\') final analysis and spending a lot more in product to start with. In the past, this has not served me very well. Maybe I need to look at more tracks and out of the many many races, find a few good ones. I have thought about trying that. Scanning and letting the numbers jump out at me - I am thinking that would be the way to do it. Is that how you do it? And do you find more consistency this way on dirt or turf?

The main point of my post was to argue in favor of the DRF as a superior product for the \"raw\" data of a horse\'s previous performances, without any derived interpretation. It leaves that up to the \'capper. And, for me it took a long time to to get halfway good at it. And I think my knowledge of the animal and training gives me an added insight into what story those running lines are telling. But I am open minded to other methods. Though I would never give up the DRF pps. Yes I do love studying the Form. It has taken me years to get my method down but it works for me. Not to red board, but I bet two races at Belmont this weekend. I hit a $200+ and a $300+ exacta. My greatest enemy to my bankroll is myself and my urge to bet more races than I should. But when I really study a race and feel good about it, I am very consistent. For me, handicapping and wagering is an exercise in self-discipline and knowing when not to bet.  

Two very different paths to the same goal!

[catcapper]

Oops! that was a $100 exacta, not a $200. and there was a $300+ . I got lucky where two double digit horses landed on top. I used 4 horses in each.

Ok, no more mere opinions from me and no more red boarding even though it is for explanation.

Next race I feel good about - when it stops raining, I will share my thoughts beforehand.

[richiebee]

Wow. \"Dueling Redboards\". Fascinating and compelling.

[P-Dub]

Richie,

My point was to show that I hit at multiple tracks, and I could never do that if I spent all of my time on one track.

Plenty of people on this board \"red board\", including some of your boys.