LISTEN UP.

[razzle]

Mike,

A request for \"enlightenment\" should begin with condescension?  Who is the \"us\" group you are representing?  
Asking in this way, your question seems more like an invitation to a pizzing match rather than a genuine inquiry.  No thanks if that\'s the case.
Regarding what I suspect to be the substance of your request, are you taking the position that 100% of races at 100% of the US tracks have outcomes decided by the natural ability of the horse and trainer irrespective of meds/PEDS and who the vet happens to be?

raz

[miff]

Razzle,

Us are the non Kool Aid drinkers involved in the game for many years that are tired of people of little to no knowledge of what is really going on,spewing venom about the whole game.

Most know that the game has medication issues,but unlike many think, there is little to no evidence of the widespread use of illegal PEDs at the main venues.Most of what is being discussed revolves around the standardization of the use of legal stuff and perhaps prohibiting or restricting its usage.Over years many trainers have mastered the use of the legal stuff and procedures. Shug has ORB taking hyperberic chamber treatments, awful no?

If you took the time to gain knowledge of the power of using legal stuff liberally( some performance enhance)in conjunction with many other legal tools,you may have a different opinion.

If you are convinced that all horses that improve are being illegally moved up, we\'ll just differ.

Mike

[bellsbendboy]

Very solid post Mike.   bbb

[Fairmount1]

These are sincere questions in reply miff.  

You have discussed \"stacking\" before and other examples of legal things that are done for horses to legally run as well as possible.  Do you believe this is the trainer that has mastered this?  Or do you believe he/she has been able to hire vets that are able to master the chemistry of the game for owners that can afford it?

I am truly curious your thoughts on the situation with Jane Cibelli.  A vet, presumably she hired, was injecting a horse\'s knee on race day and got caught.  Owner is told by Cibelli that the horse was mistakenly given an antibiotic and a reporter for drf wrote that investigators said the syringe did not contain an antibiotic as claimed.  The vet gets kicked off the grounds and ever since Cibelli has not been the same trainer as far as win percentage goes....not even close.  This low win percentage carried into the Monmouth meet.  This is all reported in Paulick Report and I\'m sure everyone on here is aware of it.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/vet-caught-injecting-cibelli-horse-suspended-90-days-agrees-to-cooperate/

Now, Miff, I\'m not trying to antagonize or get into a war of words.  But you always ask for names, names, names of trainers that are doing nefarious things when people make bold statements that they distrust the game.  Obviously JC was not the vet but it is awfully coincidental she couldn\'t win at 30 percent plus since then.  In fact, last I saw I think she was approaching 10 percent at Monmouth. So, I\'ll just leave it open ended to keep the discourse open hopefully.  What do you make of this situation?  I feel like this is just one of the situations where someone got caught doing something many, many trainers or vets are doing.  I also think jurisdiction where it happened mattered concerning testing but am open to being persuaded otherwise.  Your thoughts?

[magicnight]

Mike;

You like to tell people they said things that they never said. No one here is saying there is \"widespread use of illegal PEDs at the main venues\". You just say people say that.

\"If you are convinced that all horses that improve are being illegally moved up, we\'ll just differ.\"

Raz never said that. And try to find one post on this board where anyone said what you wrote. You won\'t find one.

Honest argument is not your strong suit.

[miff]

Fair,

Stacking,tapping,injecting is widespread throughout the game,more so on the claiming side.Use of needles in joints is often a very effective short term move up procedure. Usually, the claiming move up trainer gets a couple/few improved performances before the horse goes south, on to the next claim.Cibellis vet was caught injecting on race day, a no no.Perhaps that was part of Cibell\'s mo to achieve 30+% win rate.Unaware if Cibelli had any PED positives.Tampa Bay a known cesspool,with nowhere near the scrutiny/testing of NY/Cali/Kentucky.Again here, injecting/tapping old as the hills and not the magic bullet.

Some rogue vets out there along with trainers/owners trying everything under the sun to gain an edge.They remain a small minority until evidence to the contrary becomes widespread.

Mike

[moosepalm]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Razzle,
>
> Us are the non Kool Aid drinkers involved in the
> game for many years that are tired of people of
> little to no knowledge of what is really going
> on,spewing venom about the whole game.
>

Miff, apart from the regrettable condescension implied in your comment, the absence of an airtight case proving widespread use of illegal substances is not really going to get the sport off the hook.  There have been repeated instances, going back many years, of certain trainers (or certain vets, if you will) engineering remarkable performances with statistically aberrant numbers.  The public is not going to be dissuaded by the notion that \"nothing has been proven.\"  Until there is uniform, comprehensive testing of the type that has been discussed here repeatedly, it will be a guilty until proven otherwise phenomenon as far as public perception goes, and that translates directly into how much is being pushed through the windows.

[miff]

Bob,

You could not possibly be following this board without reading the bullshit innuendo of the Kool Aid drinkers with regard to the game being rife with cheating/illegal PEDs et al,without a shred of evidence.

Mike

[miff]

\"Certain trainers, certain vets\"

.... Yep!

[bellsbendboy]

Well done again Mike.

For me, since the Brits and others started buying Northern Dancer colts at any price and making huge coin, the game has changed from a gentlemans\' endeavor to one of profit at all costs.  Since the \"score\" on one stallion paid exponential returns; why not buy them ALL.

In the last twenty years the testing has improved immensely as the \"cheaters\" have virtually disappeared; as a percentage.

Someone posted earlier about how many races are \"tainted\" in an average card?

My answer would be \" Somewhere between all of them and none of them\".

If they expounded and asked \"How many races involve illegal drugs?

I would say ONE race nationwide each week*

bbb

*  Top ten major tracks

[moosepalm]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> \"Certain trainers, certain vets\"
>
> .... Yep!


How about canning the worthless smart-azz remarks and respond to the point of whether public perception is affected by statistically aberrant performances by \"certain trainers and certain vets\" in an environment that does not provide the kind of comprehensive testing that would mitigate these concerns?

[miff]

Moose,

Testing is far more comprehensive than it was just 10 years ago and its present level of sophistication is world class.More money for testing and select labs could further deter attempts by anyone trying to cheat.

Testing is hardly the big problem at the main venues. No amount of testing can detect an illegal drug for which there is no test.

The public which loses at betting horses in the 90%tile will never believe the game is clean even if it was squeaky.

Mike

[moosepalm]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Moose,
>
> Testing is far more comprehensive than it was just
> 10 years ago and its present level of
> sophistication is world class.More money for
> testing and select labs could further deter
> attempts by anyone trying to cheat.
>
> Testing is hardly the big problem at the main
> venues. No amount of testing can detect an illegal
> drug for which there is no test.
>
> The public which loses at betting horses in the
> 90%tile will never believe the game is clean even
> if it was squeaky.
>
> Mike

Thank you for the evenhanded response.  You\'re correct that a large percentage of the players will assume cheating, regardless.  Then there are others, examples of whom are on this board, who believe the problem is greatly overblown.  In the gray area are thoughtful players who are skeptical based on \"if it walks like a duck,\" thinking, and there is no shortage of statistical evidence for them to see ducks.  If the majority of what is done is entirely legal, as you suggest, then it is incumbent upon the sport to confirm that with as much evidentiary support as can be reasonably generated.  If, as you also suggest, the crooks can stay one step ahead of the sheriff, then the sport needs to hire some of the spin doctors who work for the political deviants who keep getting re-elected.

[Fairmount1]

Again, not to be antagonistic.  But you want names at main venues and Tampa wasn\'t anything but a known place of nonsense you essentially said.  Let\'s try again.  

Carla Gaines, Testosterone.  Over the 55 nanograms limit (I guess this is a normal level for fillies to be at for testosterone??)  What about males that take this supplement....hmmm.  I understand the facts of the supplement issue but her argument was over testing procedure to challenge.  

Sure sounds performance enhancing.  

And is there any ban against steroids other than race day?  I mean some have surmised here that a trainer gives a horse the \"juice\" for six months while he is out racing, brings him back xx amount of days later when he won\'t test positive and race him with the benefit of all the training/muscle mass built while on the juice previously but tests clean on race day.  Is this still a possibility?  I mean watch the espn special 9.79 and this is clearly a strategy around for a long time now.

[TGJB]

I\'m doing this on my phone so this is my one post tonight. Mike, you\'re right. Allday admitting to extensive EPO use is not proof enough,and the TDN series made it clear testing is completely adequate.