Don't discount a Secretariat like performance Saturday

[jerry]

Because they think their horse performs better with it.

[joemama]

That\'s what I thought. Because they THINK the horse preforms better with it.  Gues s the connections just superstitious.

[jerry]

Who knows? Who cares? Racing permits all kinds of optional race day equipment. I assume they\'re intended to enhance the horses performance. Why not nasal strips?

[TGJB]

Briefly-- tongue ties, blinkers, operations and the like don\'t allow horses to run faster than their bodies are normally capable of, just let them run to their ability.

Almost all the current era performance enhancers (EPO, Clenbuterol etc.) work on the basis of getting extra oxygen to the cells. If the strip works at all it does the same thing and he shouldn\'t be allowed to use it. If it doesn\'t he doesn\'t need it.

Re Lasix-- I am the only one I know that has put forward a reasonable position on this, which means it has no shot to happen. They should go back to the state certifying bleeders, only bleeders can use it, and they carry a weight penalty. It looks like 5 pounds is about right, based on the work we did (small sample, but the only one done attempting to quantify the effect on RACEHORSES that I know of).

As for whoever asked for \"proof\" about the effect on CC-- what we have is evidence. There is no such thing as proof, especially when we don\'t even know who wears them and who doesn\'t. But we have his sheet, which is a one in maybe 100,000 occurrence-- like I said, the last horse I saw improve that much in one shot from an established level AND STAY THERE WITHOUT BOUNCING was Cigar, and it \"coincided\" with CC getting more air. We also have that Contessa just started putting strips on his horses and won with the first three, for what it\'s worth.

If CC ran without the strip Saturday we would have more evidence, one way or the other. I know which way I would be betting. And I would like someone here to tell me with a straight face that if he ran without it they would bet serious money on him.

[P-Dub]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Briefly-- tongue ties, blinkers, operations and
> the like don\'t allow horses to run faster than
> their bodies are normally capable of, just let
> them run to their ability.
>
> Almost all the current era performance enhancers
> (EPO, Clenbuterol etc.) work on the basis of
> getting extra oxygen to the cells. If the strip
> works at all it does the same thing and he
> shouldn\'t be allowed to use it. If it doesn\'t he
> doesn\'t need it.
>
> Re Lasix-- I am the only one I know that has put
> forward a reasonable position on this, which means
> it has no shot to happen. They should go back to
> the state certifying bleeders, only bleeders can
> use it, and they carry a weight penalty. It looks
> like 5 pounds is about right, based on the work we
> did (small sample, but the only one done
> attempting to quantify the effect on RACEHORSES
> that I know of).
>
> As for whoever asked for \"proof\" about the effect
> on CC-- what we have is evidence. There is no such
> thing as proof, especially when we don\'t even know
> who wears them and who doesn\'t. But we have his
> sheet, which is a one in maybe 100,000
> occurrence-- like I said, the last horse I saw
> improve that much in one shot from an established
> level AND STAY THERE WITHOUT BOUNCING was Cigar,
> and it \"coincided\" with CC getting more air. We
> also have that Contessa just started putting
> strips on his horses and won with the first three,
> for what it\'s worth.
>
> If CC ran without the strip Saturday we would have
> more evidence, one way or the other. I know which
> way I would be betting. And I would like someone
> here to tell me with a straight face that if he
> ran without it they would bet serious money on
> him.

JB,

Excellent response.

I used the word proof, and while we can go round and round about what exactly caused the jump up, the strip is certainly a plausible reason for it happening.

I also mentioned Lasix, and had no idea you have been a proponent against it. I will retract that statement, and applaud you for your stance.

If CC has a breathing issue that is helped by a nasal strip, is there a surgical procedure that can help this??

If he wasn\'t allowed the strip, wouldn\'t bet serious money on him. I believe Alysheba ran without Lasix ( I could be wrong), difficult to bet him on that day too. I don\'t know how much it helps, but anything that would detract from CC\'s current form cycle should make anyone think twice about using him.

[TGJB]

Pdub-- To be clear, I\'m not a hay and oats purist. I think it should be legal for those that actually need it, they just shouldn\'t have an edge. But more importantly it should be legal because it would create chaos for bettors if bleeders couldn\'t use it-- those with inside information would have a huge advantage (probably true with strips as well). There is a reason that Lasix is the ONLY drug listed in the program-- it\'s that important

It\'s also necessary for other reasons. I think the estimate is around 20% of horses bleed without lasix, and they need rest before starting again when they do. You\'re in California-- they\'re already down to 4 days, and 5 horse fields a couple of races a day. How would you like to be the racing office trying to fill races without Lasix?

[JimP]

\"tongue ties, blinkers, operations and the like don\'t allow horses to run faster than their bodies are normally capable of\"

The only thing that allows a horse to run \"faster than their bodies are normally capable of\" is a trailer. Obviously all of these things allow a horse to run faster than he would without them. Else they wouldn\'t be used. There\'s absolutely no difference between these things and a nasal strip. They\'re all simply permitted equipment that can allow a horse to perform better than he would otherwise. I don\'t understand why this is such a big issue. They\'re legal. Any horse that can benefit from them can use them. Not all can. Just like shoes, blinkers, tongue ties, and a host of other things.

[P-Dub]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pdub-- To be clear, I\'m not a hay and oats purist.
> I think it should be legal for those that actually
> need it, they just shouldn\'t have an edge. But
> more importantly it should be legal because it
> would create chaos for bettors if bleeders
> couldn\'t use it-- those with inside information
> would have a huge advantage (probably true with
> strips as well). There is a reason that Lasix is
> the ONLY drug listed in the program-- it\'s that
> important
>
> It\'s also necessary for other reasons. I think the
> estimate is around 20% of horses bleed without
> lasix, and they need rest before starting again
> when they do. You\'re in California-- they\'re
> already down to 4 days, and 5 horse fields a
> couple of races a day. How would you like to be
> the racing office trying to fill races without
> Lasix?

JB,

I didn\'t mean to imply it should be banned. I agree with your views on lasix, used when necessary, etc...

I live 20 minus from GGF, been there maybe twice in 5 years. One was to watch the great Mike Smith lose a stakes race. (After the loss, he spent time signing and taking pics with fans.) I haven\'t mentioned Smith in at least 20 posts, I\'m behind.

I used to make it a several times a month, as well as Bay Meadows. The current state of No Cal racing is beyond depressing. How I miss the days of Hansen, Gonzo, etc... Top So Cal sprinters coming up on Memorial Day for the Oakland Hdcp. Top So Cal turfers racing in the SF Mile.  Even the turf stakes suck now.

5 horse races a couple times a day??  Up here its the norm.

Saturday will remind me again why I love this sport.

[TGJB]

You\'re right, Clenbuterol injected directly into the trachea on race day and EPO and steroids don\'t let a horse run faster than he is normally capable of. It was simply irrational to ban them.

You can read some amazing things here.

[miff]

Vet records for 4 Grade 1 races will be published by NYSGC on their website starting tomorrow.

[smalltimer]

Jim P,
My point on the nasal strip is that the New Yorkers changed a rule for this horse because he would contend for the Triple Crown.
What you think the powers that be in NY would have said if the connections of Ride on Curlin had said, \"if ROC doesn\'t wear the strip, we won\'t run.\"
They would have told them to take a hike.
The rule was changed for one horse.  No other way to look at it.

[Flighted Iron]

TGJB,

Re: Tongue ties

If a horse doesn\'t wear this piece of equipment and displaces his/her soft palate wouldn\'t their airflow be disturbed ?


Flighted

[TGJB]

Yes. But keeping a horse from choking and getting him extra air are two different things. Clenbuterol is a broncho-dilator, theoretically nasal strips do something similar mechanically.

[moosepalm]

joemama Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> An the connections of CC would not run without the
> nasal strip because?

First of all, this is completely irrelevant to the issue.  If they \"think\" it helps their horse, it\'s simply a lay person\'s opinion.  It\'s not science.  It\'s like people who swear by some vitamins when there\'s no supporting evidence.  They\'ll believe what they want to believe, but even if they live to be one hundred, that doesn\'t make it science.

As far as the connections threatening to pull out if the strip wasn\'t allowed, all we know is that it was a threat.  Why shouldn\'t they do that?  They were holding the stronger hand.  Unless they actually pulled out, this is simply speculation.

[JimP]

A horse can only run as fast as he is capable of. Some things, like the things you mention, can cause a horse to run faster than he otherwise would. But it\'s not possible for a horse to run faster than he\'s capable of because if he runs faster then he obviously was capable of running faster. Some things that can cause a horse to run faster than he otherwise would are legal and some are not. The distinction between legal and illegal is based on other factors. Sometimes that distinction is arrived at arbitrarily. Sometimes there is a more logical basis for the distinction, such as the health and well being of the horse. Nasal strips are now legal. So what\'s the fuss? Is anyone arguing that there is some risk to the horse of using nasal strips? I haven\'t heard such an argument. So this is one of those items that fall into the arbitrary category. Just like blinkers, tongue ties, etc.