Don't discount a Secretariat like performance Saturday

[jerry]

I was thinking of War Emblem but he was transferred to Baffert. Although wasn\'t that after his jump up in the Illinois Derby?

[jerry]

Sure. War Emblem jumped forward 7+ points and stayed there for 4 races, the first 2 of those while still under Springer\'s care.

[jerry]

In addition to War Emblem, Orb jumped forward 6 1/2 points and held it together for 3 races. Mine That Bird jumped up 6 1/4 points and backed it up in the Preakness. Street Sense, 7 points.

[NormandyInvasion]

TGJB Wrote:
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> Briefly-- tongue ties, blinkers, operations and
> the like don\'t allow horses to run faster than
> their bodies are normally capable of, just let
> them run to their ability.
>
> Almost all the current era performance enhancers
> (EPO, Clenbuterol etc.) work on the basis of
> getting extra oxygen to the cells. If the strip
> works at all it does the same thing and he
> shouldn\'t be allowed to use it. If it doesn\'t he
> doesn\'t need it.
>
> Re Lasix-- I am the only one I know that has put
> forward a reasonable position on this, which means
> it has no shot to happen. They should go back to
> the state certifying bleeders, only bleeders can
> use it, and they carry a weight penalty. It looks
> like 5 pounds is about right, based on the work we
> did (small sample, but the only one done
> attempting to quantify the effect on RACEHORSES
> that I know of).
>
> As for whoever asked for \"proof\" about the effect
> on CC-- what we have is evidence. There is no such
> thing as proof, especially when we don\'t even know
> who wears them and who doesn\'t. But we have his
> sheet, which is a one in maybe 100,000
> occurrence-- like I said, the last horse I saw
> improve that much in one shot from an established
> level AND STAY THERE WITHOUT BOUNCING was Cigar,
> and it \"coincided\" with CC getting more air. We
> also have that Contessa just started putting
> strips on his horses and won with the first three,
> for what it\'s worth.
>
> If CC ran without the strip Saturday we would have
> more evidence, one way or the other. I know which
> way I would be betting. And I would like someone
> here to tell me with a straight face that if he
> ran without it they would bet serious money on
> him.


Nasal strips are a piece of equipment -- NOT a drug.  Therefore I don\'t see the problem.

Are you against tongue-ties?  Are you against equipment that helps to keep a horse calm since anxiety can cause a horse to lose its air?  Or equipment which makes the horse more rateable, helping him ration his air?

Do you think that the thousands of horses every year who have surgery to help their breathing shouldn\'t be allowed to race?

If equipment (or surgery) helps a horse get its air (which isn\'t the definition of performance-enhancing), then we should all be for that.

[TGJB]

So, how about a mini-oxygen tank?

[P-Dub]

TGJB Wrote:
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> So, how about a mini-oxygen tank?


How about we finally give this subject a rest??

And I\'m the one that has to comment on everything??

Its been talked about to death for 2 weeks.

You\'re right, everyone else is wrong.

Its a great race day, try and enjoy it.

[TGJB]

I\'m responding directly to a guy who said it\'s okay specifically because it\'s  not a drug.

Be smart here.

[P-Dub]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I\'m responding directly to a guy who said it\'s
> okay specifically because it\'s  not a drug.
>
> Be smart here.

Fair enough JB,

Its become a pretty polarizing discussion. Neither side is going to change their opinion.

Good luck today with your action.

[NormandyInvasion]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, how about a mini-oxygen tank?

Seriously?

The horse is breathing the same air as every other horse in the field, not super-oxygenated air being pumped directly into him.

You didn\'t answer if you also think that everything else that could help a horse get his maximum air should be illegal, from tongue ties to figure 8s to blinkers and all sorts of other equipment?  Anything that helps a horse relax helps him get his air.

Nasal strips have been around a long time.  They were a fad 15 or 20 years ago then basically disappeared from the scene when trainers just weren\'t seeing them having a worthwhile impact.  But maybe it can help one, just like other equipment can help certain horses, or certain horses needing surgery to help them breathe better.  But none of these things are performance enhancers as you labeled them.

[miff]

If you are the \"real\" underachieving,over rated fraud, Normandy Invasion, we are done,enough!

[TGJB]

Hopefully for the last time, but I doubt it.

Not all drugs are illegal. Ones that perform certain functions are. The deciding factor is not whether something is a drug, but what it does.

The performance enhancers people use now are usually those that increase the amount of oxygen getting to a horse, either by increasing the amount of red blood cells (EPO), or air (Clenbuterol, which is a broncho-dilator, and as such is banned for raceday use. In NY, actually for 14 days from a race).

The nasal strips are, by definition, also dilating airwaves, just doing it mechanically. That increases air supply. If it doesn\'t do that it doesn\'t do anything at all-- so it either does something we don\'t want done, or it has no function, and there is no need for it.

I use them, as I have said, and they work great. Before they came along I used Afrin to get the same result (and the strips work much better). Is Afrin legal? Ask the stewards whether it\'s okay to use it.

[NormandyInvasion]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hopefully for the last time, but I doubt it.
>
> Not all drugs are illegal. Ones that perform
> certain functions are. The deciding factor is not
> whether something is a drug, but what it does.
>
> The performance enhancers people use now are
> usually those that increase the amount of oxygen
> getting to a horse, either by increasing the
> amount of red blood cells (EPO), or air
> (Clenbuterol, which is a broncho-dilator, and as
> such is banned for raceday use. In NY, actually
> for 14 days from a race).
>
> The nasal strips are, by definition, also dilating
> airwaves, just doing it mechanically. That
> increases air supply. If it doesn\'t do that it
> doesn\'t do anything at all-- so it either does
> something we don\'t want done, or it has no
> function, and there is no need for it.
>
> I use them, as I have said, and they work great.
> Before they came along I used Afrin to get the
> same result (and the strips work much better). Is
> Afrin legal? Ask the stewards whether it\'s okay to
> use it.

Well, I\'d argue that mechanically a tongue tie and other equipment do the same thing, so you\'re saying they should be illegal?  Should it be illegal for a horse to run who has had surgery to correct its breathing?  Why won\'t you answer instead of ignoring other equipment which has the same effect and targeting only the bandaids slapped across the horse\'s nose?

[TGJB]

Those things correct a problem, as (in theory) does Lasix, they do not let a horse run better than his natural ability. (The big argument about Lasix is whether it in fact does that as well).

As to not answering, you\'re coming in late on this conversation. I made all these points 100 posts back.

And yes, there are lots of arguments to be had about OTHER things (Lasix among them). But here we are talking about something that does the same thing as drugs that are banned.

[P-Dub]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those things correct a problem, as (in theory)
> does Lasix, they do not let a horse run better
> than his natural ability. (The big argument about
> Lasix is whether it in fact does that as well).
>
> As to not answering, you\'re coming in late on this
> conversation. I made all these points 100 posts
> back.
>
> And yes, there are lots of arguments to be had
> about OTHER things (Lasix among them). But here we
> are talking about something that does the same
> thing as drugs that are banned.


Is it possible this does nothing more than allowing him to breathe normally?? There isn\'t evidence it creates a superhighway of oxygen.

[TGJB]

Pdub-- that\'s where this conversation should be taking place. What\'s normal, what\'s it fixing. Problem I got is what his sheet looks like. One in 100,000, me kidding.