Espinoza -- Whip

[Strike]

Espinoza getting some bad press for his use of the whip on Pharaoh and not just from PETA. Word is he hit him 32 times in the Derby (I didn\'t count but that is what is reported). Interesting that Baffert took Espinoza off of Kafwain in 2003 after the Louisiana Derby and before the Santa Anita Derby for exactly the same thing -- \"Espinoza hit my horse so hard and so many times... .\" P Val replaced him. And, this was the year after Espinoza won the Derby for Baffert on War Emblem.

Did Pharaoh need to be hit that many times in order to win -- who knows? Probably not as he did not have time to react each time (a standard in England).
Was he full out energy-wise to win the race -- you betcha.

For a horse that has hardly, if ever, been touched by the whip until the Derby -- will that be in the back of his mind when he runs again? I kind of think so.

[SoCalMan2]

Strike Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Espinoza getting some bad press for his use of the
> whip on Pharaoh and not just from PETA. Word is he
> hit him 32 times in the Derby (I didn\'t count but
> that is what is reported). Interesting that
> Baffert took Espinoza off of Kafwain in 2003 after
> the Louisiana Derby and before the Santa Anita
> Derby for exactly the same thing -- \"Espinoza hit
> my horse so hard and so many times... .\" P Val
> replaced him. And, this was the year after
> Espinoza won the Derby for Baffert on War Emblem.
>
> Did Pharaoh need to be hit that many times in
> order to win -- who knows? Probably not as he did
> not have time to react each time (a standard in
> England).
> Was he full out energy-wise to win the race -- you
> betcha.
>
> For a horse that has hardly, if ever, been touched
> by the whip until the Derby -- will that be in the
> back of his mind when he runs again? I kind of
> think so.

I wonder if there would have been a scandal if he tucked the whip away and hand rode him to a second place finish behind Firing Line?  I know I would have done hugely better if Firing Line had won.  Any chance they will DQ him for too much whipping?  If they do, what do the bettors get out of that?  I wonder how many times Grindstone was whipped to beat the Baffert trained Cavonnier by a nose?  I wonder how much Cavonnier was whipped?  Should they have DQ\'ed the horse whipped the most?

[Boscar Obarra]

I didn\'t count the number of strokes,  but I suspect that was needed to get to the bottom of AP on this day.

 Watching it live, it didn\'t seem excessive at the time.


 It\'s the freaking derby, if you\'re not going to ride hard on that day, then when?

 PS I\'m not in favor of abuse, this didn\'t seem like it.

[Strike]

I am not really being critical of Espinoza -- I just find it ironic that Baffert took Espinoza off of a Derby contender in 2003 for this reason. I suppose Espinoza did what he thought he needed to do with Kafwain the same he believed he needed to do with Pharaoah.

My immediate interest is will this have an effect on Pharaoh in the Preakness and I believe it will.

(I wish Firing Line won as well).

[T Severini]

I saw it. Espinosa laid a tattoo on him. Whack, Whack, Whack. Can\'t type them all.....Whack.

AP was \"all in\" to win that race. It was not an easy race and should have a conditioning cost.

Also of note, shortly after the wire the others galloped quickly past him.

Closing Argument

[toppled]

I think it will be in the back of his mind too.  He\'ll think: Hey last time I got whipped so hard and then they draped me in roses & treated me like I just ended world terrorism.  I hope they do that again.  

Seriously, some of you people who were making excuses why he wouldn\'t win the Derby are reaching again.  Your\'s is the biggest reach yet.  I can\'t wait to hear the reasons why he won\'t win the Belmont, although if they\'re referenced off his sheet, they may be legitimate.  A lot more than he\'s psychologically damaged from too many strikes of the whip.

[johnnym]

Just read on bloodhorse he was fined for whipping a horse. $300

[T Severini]

toppled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it will be in the back of his mind too.
> He\'ll think: Hey last time I got whipped so hard
> and then they draped me in roses & treated me like
> I just ended world terrorism.  I hope they do that
> again.  
>
> Seriously, some of you people who were making
> excuses why he wouldn\'t win the Derby are reaching
> again.  Your\'s is the biggest reach yet.  I can\'t
> wait to hear the reasons why he won\'t win the
> Belmont, although if they\'re referenced off his
> sheet, they may be legitimate.  A lot more than
> he\'s psychologically damaged from too many strikes
> of the whip.


Equine Psychological damage?  Sure why not, but that\'s not the point. The point is if Firing Line was all in, failing to change leads, bearing out, shortening stride, why would anyone think that Adrian Peterson is gonna shake off that drubbing he took to ease past a tired horse.

It took every last one of those lashes to get him over the hump, certainly not faulting Espinoza, he did what he had to do, but immediately after the beating ceased old AP stopped like he ran into a wall.  

Lets beat him good this time. Real good.

[toppled]

You lost the race,get over it and stop picking on the horse who beat you.  Last year a lot of us keyed on Commanding Curve and we lost a ton when he finished 2nd instead of first.  We didn\'t come here and trash Chrome like a kid who got his ice cream cone taken away.  We took it like adults and moved on.

[T Severini]

Not sure why I began referring to AP as Adrian Peterson. The interesting thing though is now the whipping illustration kind of fits. Peterson whipped and then got his hide whipped by his team / League. Another League whipping looks imminent.

I\'ll concede and call him AP hence forth maybe that will allow me to discuss bounce and regression without disrespecting the horse. I just think illustrating those concepts makes a better read.

It\'s not about being a poor sport. It\'s always about the next opportunity, especially when one observes chinks in the armor.

[Chas04]

Is there anyone on this entire board but Covello that likes AP but me?  I got crushed on Chrome last year in the Derby but then pressed him in the Preakness. Granted....all the exotics were extremely low...but a win is a win. I then tried to beat him in the Belmont and pressed harder then I ever had before. It was probably the greatest single day I ever had at the track. I see all the chinks against AP....but what are the viable alternatives in the Preakness?  Just wondering if ANYONE has anything good to say about him....anything???

[toppled]

I\'ll concede, my heart wants him to win the Triple Crown, my head says he probably won\'t make it based on how difficult it will be for him to go 1 1/2 after what could be 3 straight negative #s.  On top of that his breeding may catch up with him going 1 1/2.  

I can\'t imagine a scenario where betting decent money on the Preakness makes a lot of sense. Baffert is 3 for 3 going to the Preakness with a Derby winner.  The horse was faster than the rest of the Derby field by 1.5 points.  At 3/5 the only way to play him is in a multi-race bet or if you like a bomb to finish in the top 3.  If you want to play against him, who is worth playing?  The two horses who finished right behind him won\'t be decent enough odds to bet to beat him, especially if he gets a more ground saving trip and if Materiality runs, he\'ll be bet heavily.  So even if you can beat him, the odds of making a decent score aren\'t that good. Add to that in the last 20 years only 3 non-Derby starters have won the Preakness-1 in a year when the Derby winner broke down and another when the best 3yo of that year didn\'t run in the Derby because she ran in the Oaks instead.  

If I bet against him, it will be in the Belmont with a fresh horse who hasn\'t run in 4-5 weeks. This year\'s Preakness is almost a textbook example of a non playable race.  I always find it pretty easy to skip the Preakness or bet very lightly because of the 3 Triple Crown races, the Preakness doesn\'t usually return very good value for your betting dollar.

[toppled]

That was for Stellar Wind at SA.  They claim he broke her skin with the whip and fined him for it.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91876/espinoza-fined-for-whip-use-on-stellar-wind

[miff]

Good thing Jorge Chavez not riding with this whip stuff in play.